LOGO-L> Re: force for the good 
Author Message
 LOGO-L> Re: force for the good

Quote:

>Let's teach kids that education is strictly utilitarian, that there's
>no reason to learn anything for its own sake, but rather only for the
>goal of getting rich.

Last month I was struck when watching{*filter*}ens' A Christmas Carol on TV when
the ghost of Christmas present (?) revealed the two children under his robe
and said
       "These are ignorance and want... Beware of them..."

Ignorance and want. They stand together, yet they are two. I have to contend
with both of these children all the time at the jail school where I work.
I'd have to say that many of my students learned Brian's lesson all too well
and look where it got them. Still, there is ignorance and want.

Tom

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Wed, 04 Jul 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 LOGO-L> Re: force for the good

Quote:

>>Let's teach kids that education is strictly utilitarian, that
there's
>>no reason to learn anything for its own sake, but rather only for
the
>>goal of getting rich.

Then Tom continued the theme:

Quote:
>Last month I was struck when watching{*filter*}ens' A Christmas Carol >

What do you fellows mean by "getting rich." Can you put a number on
the difference between being:   "Still, there is ignorance and want."
and being rich?

Is there something imm{*filter*}about a Microsoft secretary with $1E6 in
the bank?

Aren't both of you(Tom and Brian) rich relative to most of the
people(that have ever lived and do now live) in this world?  I know I
am.

Brian, I have not been to your web site lately but the first time I
visited, a couple years ago, I noticed that your favorite recipe for
turkey dressing was WAY to rich for my simple tastes.

Actually Tom I think you hit the nail right on the head.  This is a
great list for laying the truth right out on the table for all the
consider.  There must really be something about Logo that stirs people
into clear thinking.

The TRUTH IS:

There are people in this world that think of  people as victims and
there or those that think of them as heroes.

We selfish greedy capitalists are in the second camp.   Dale
---

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Wed, 04 Jul 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 LOGO-L> Re: force for the good

Quote:
>What do you fellows mean by "getting rich." Can you put a number on
>the difference between being:   "Still, there is ignorance and want."
>and being rich?

in response to:

Quote:
>>Let's teach kids that education is strictly utilitarian, that there's
>>no reason to learn anything for its own sake, but rather only for the
>>goal of getting rich.

Sigh, Dale, you get on this defensive soapbox too easily.  What I said
was "it's wrong to think that the only purpose of education is to get
rich."  I bet you believe that yourself.  Had I said "it's wrong to get
rich," then it would make sense for you to pick this fight.

Once upon a time we had heroes like Thomas Edison, and Alexander G. Bell,
who worked hard to create useful things, and in the process got rich.
(Of the two, Edison had getting rich nearer the top of his mind; Bell
was trying to help the deaf, and got rich sort of by accident.)  Today
our heroes are the likes of Gates, Turner, Milliken (sp?) until he went
to prison -- people who create nothing, but *only* amass wealth.  It's
not the wealth per se that's the problem; it's the parasitism.



Wed, 04 Jul 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 LOGO-L> Re: force for the good
Ken wondered:

Quote:
>I get a vague feeling, from a UK perspective, that home schooling
>in the States is dominated by religious fundamentalists, and in
>the UK by lovers of freedom.

>Will someone provide me with facts with which I can turn this
>provisional and obviously biased idea into a well-informed opinion
>one way or the other ?

Ken I suggest that you sign up and ask your questions to the SepSchool
list at http://www.sepschool.org .

Most of these good folks(almost all are
homeschoolers/unschoolers/self_directed_learners/autodydics or simply
advocates of children learning what they want to learn rather than
what some authority thinks they need to learn) are libertarians(lovers
of freedom by definition).  Many are
Christians/Jews/Moslems/Catholics/LDS, whatever, but there is a
smattering of non-Believers.  Like me.

Of course homeschooling(called that because that is what the State
laws that cover these activities are labeled not because the learning
is necessarily done at home) was "invented" by liberals like John
Holt.   There is no-way a Conservative would of invented something as
far-out as letting youngsters be responsible for their own learnings.
Dale
---

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Wed, 04 Jul 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 LOGO-L> Re: force for the good

Quote:
>Of course homeschooling(called that because that is what the State
>laws that cover these activities are labeled not because the learning
>is necessarily done at home) was "invented" by liberals like John
>Holt.   There is no-way a Conservative would of invented something as
>far-out as letting youngsters be responsible for their own learnings.

It could be argued that if anyone "invented" homeschooling it was the
old kings and lords who hired tutors for their children.  This goes
back at least as far as Aristotle, who tutored, umm, Philip, was it?
I forget.  And no doubt there are older examples from Egypt and China.
This isn't quite the same as letting the kids be in charge, but still
one-on-one tutoring is more responsive to the kid's needs than what
the rest of us get.

The work that many people cite as the beginning of the modern progressive
education movement, Rousseau's _Emile_, is precisely in this context.
Emile's tutor has a child-centered approach, but Emile is a prince.



Wed, 04 Jul 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 LOGO-L> Re: force for the good
Brian said:

Quote:
>It could be argued that if anyone "invented" homeschooling it was the
>old kings and lords who hired tutors for their children <snip>

Interesting answer Brian.

I was speaking of the modern(last 20 years) homeschooling movement but
you might be interested in the info at:
http://sony.inergy.com/HomeschoolHelps/hallofame.html .   Especially
since you mentioned Edison in a previous post.

Someone pointed me to this site just today so I have barely glanced at
it but it looks interesting.  Dale
---

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Thu, 05 Jul 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 LOGO-L> Re: force for the good
 Today

Quote:
> our heroes are the likes of Gates, Turner, Milliken (sp?)
> until he went
> to prison -- people who create nothing, but *only* amass wealth.  It's
> not the wealth per se that's the problem; it's the parasitism.

Hi Harvey, you certainly do not speak for me - and many of my friends
regarding who "our heroes" are. There is no doubt that too many in the
society are pathologically {*filter*}ed to material things.
Do you not think that there are parasites amongst the job incumbents in
"protected positions" whether they be though tenure or inheritance?
I like the concept of open competition for work. However, I am compassionate
enough to recognise that there are many in society who are less fortunate
(by birth or circumstance) who need some form of protected job environments.

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Thu, 05 Jul 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 LOGO-L> Re: force for the good
Tom told us a story about a young poet:
<snip>

What an adventurous life your poet has led Tom. With that kind of
background and living in this country and world of almost infinite
possibilities his poems and/or mathematical abilities will provide him
a fine living.  In fact keep an eye on him and tell us when he decides
to stop being a victim and start being a hero.  Tell us when we can
buy the results of his productive work.

And being a big Szasz fan I do not believe in mental illness.

Your poet is just different than the rest of us.  We, especially on
this Logo list, are different from each other.  Sooner or later he
will decide to turn his experiences and differences into assets.  Just
as all {*filter*}s do when they decide to live a life worth living.
Dale

"In the animal kingdom, the rule is: eat or be eaten;
in the human kingdom: define or be defined."
------Thomas Szasz, libertarian psychiatrist
---

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Thu, 05 Jul 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 LOGO-L> Re: force for the good

Quote:

>The TRUTH IS:

>There are people in this world that think of  people as victims and
>there or those that think of them as heroes.

I can't think of my students in such black and white terms. And I don't
think the issue of ignorance and want is about victims or heros, or the way
we think about people.

I had a student last summer. He's a marvelous poet, very quick in grasping
mathematic ideas, he had the extraordinary opportunity to travel to almost
every state in the US. I was truly impressed with the things he could tell
me about different places. He told me how he rode in the big semi that his
mom drove. He told me how once in Texas, while traveling with his mom, his
girlfriend, and his mom's boyfriend, he discovered that the boyfriend had
engaged in a {*filter*} encounter with his girlfriend in a public bathroom.
There was a fight in the middle of a store, and the three drove off leaving
my student penniless to find his own way to Vermont. He was 16 then. That
was the last time he saw his mother. This student suffers from paranoid
schizophrenia. He was in jail for a year and a half for {*filter*} with a
deadly weapon. Part of the reason he wound up in jail (aside from having
assulted someone) was because they closed down all the mental hospitals.
There really was no other place for this person except jail. When he was
released, the state bought him a bus ticket to California where his mom
lives. California is also about as far away from Vermont as you can get, and
I'm sure that crossed the mind of many.

I wouldn't ask you to feel sorry for this person, or to think of him as
either a victim or a hero, as rich or poor. But think how it relates to
ignorance and want. Ask, if we don't do something about situations like
this, is any of us really safe? I think of{*filter*}ens again: (thanks, Frank)
"for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be
erased."

If I could dictate the purposes for schools, I think I'd lean more toward
{*filter*}ens.

Tom

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Thu, 05 Jul 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 LOGO-L> Re: force for the good
I like collecting quotes. From my collection:

It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education
Albert Einstein

A line from the movie 'Men in Black'
"Gentlemen you're everything we've come to expect from years of government
training."

A 'History of Education' site points to:

Poison Drops in the Federal Senate: The School Question from a Parental and
Non-Sectarian Standpoint.
  This polemic book, published in 1886 by Zach Montgomery, may
  demonstrate that some arguments against state-controlled public
  education (as in recent debates on homeschooling) are not entirely
  new. E-text at the personal website of Kaleb Axon.

A fascinating little book. My wife found the book at a book sale many years ago.
We like to use it to illustrate that the problems with public schools have been
around literally for years.

http://www.socsci.kun.nl/ped/whp/histeduc/links10q.html

My daughter is reading a book of 600 common sayings. I bet it contains the
saying:
  You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

I found a web page about automatic waterers for horses
http://www.prairienet.org/horse-sense/autowate.htm and while I thought it
appropriate, I feel I should comment that IN MY OPINION:
  You can lead a student to water and hold his head under till the bubbles stop
coming up but you should really examine what you are trying to accomplish.

I'm working on that quote...

We tend to make learning available for our child. We got her a game for
Christmas. It was her first game. We were worried that giving her a game was
'bad'. She played it for days. Our worse fears were coming true.

Well, it's been weeks since she played the game. She is currently waiting (not
so) patiently for me to install a spelling 'game'. Our problem is that there are
so many opportunities to drink at the fountain of knowledge that we have to make
sure she does not drink more than is healthy in one setting.

One thing that the schools teach is:

Doing a job that is not fun and that takes way more time than we would like. I
feel that the lesson is presented by the school in a negative way. However, the
kids do learn that 'you gotta do what you gotta do'. We are working on learning
to stay on a project and to plan ahead. Our child is 10, so I feel we have a few
years to get those lessons across. (-:

(I'm going to see about getting the book 'Growing Up Digital : The Rise of the
Net Generation' by Don Tapscott. Amazon said that "Education and Ecstasy,"
George B. Leonard is out of print.)

I was behind on e-mail to the list. I'm about caught up...

Gary

Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind
will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
  Thomas Jefferson

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Fri, 06 Jul 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 LOGO-L> Re: force for the good
The site lists people that had some home schooling. It's under
construction.

I also found Brian's comment interesting. I would like to hear more about
why it could be argued the old kings and lords invented home schooling. I
feel that the kings and queens did not spend a lot of time with their
little ones and that it could be argued that their giving up their
responsabilities to teach their own children to tutors goes against the
ideas of homeschooling.

Gary

Quote:

> Brian said:
> >It could be argued that if anyone "invented" homeschooling it was the
> >old kings and lords who hired tutors for their children <snip>

> Interesting answer Brian.

> I was speaking of the modern(last 20 years) homeschooling movement but
> you might be interested in the info at:
> http://sony.inergy.com/HomeschoolHelps/hallofame.html .   Especially
> since you mentioned Edison in a previous post.

> Someone pointed me to this site just today so I have barely glanced at
> it but it looks interesting.  Dale
> ---

> ---------------------------------------------------------------




---------------------------------------------------------------





Fri, 06 Jul 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 LOGO-L> Re: force for the good
 "Education and Ecstasy,"

Quote:
>George B. Leonard is out of print.)

Do a search at http://www.*-*-*.com/ ;There are lots of copies in
{*filter*}space.   And I can generaly find a store or two that has included
shipping in the stated cost.    Dale
---

---------------------------------------------------------------





Fri, 06 Jul 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 LOGO-L> Re: force for the good

Quote:
>And being a big Szasz fan I do not believe in mental illness.

We are getting far afield from Logo.  But from all the arrogant nonsense
in Dale's message (arrogant in imposing his ideology onto the problems of
someone he's never met) I think this line requires a response.

Szasz and other anti-psychiatry activists oppose the use of psychiatric
labelling to impose invasive treatments such as psychoactive {*filter*},
involuntary hospitalization, and shock therapy.  None of those things
happened to Tom's student -- instead, he was put in prison.

Szasz, like any therapist, is supportive toward the people he sees, isn't
he?  I don't think he'd say "just stop being a victim" and leave it at
that.  He wouldn't expect someone with the history of Tom's student to solve
his own problems without support.  This is reducing a serious position to
sloganeering.



Fri, 06 Jul 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 LOGO-L> Re: force for the good

Quote:

>I also found Brian's comment interesting. I would like to hear more about
>why it could be argued the old kings and lords invented home schooling. I
>feel that the kings and queens did not spend a lot of time with their
>little ones and that it could be argued that their giving up their
>responsabilities to teach their own children to tutors goes against the
>ideas of homeschooling.

It depends on where you put your emphasis.  If you understand homeschooling
mainly as a way for YOU to be close to YOUR kid, then yes, hiring a tutor
goes against that.  But if you understand homeschooling mainly as working
from the idea that 30 kids are unlikely to all need the same activity at
the same time, then providing an individual tutor attuned to your kid's
immediate needs is at least a precursor of modern homeschooling, although
of course the social context is quite different.

There is a third way to understand homeschooling, which is putting the
kid in charge, rather than either a school or a tutor.  I tend not to
think of homeschooling that way, because I've seen both kid-centered
group learning environments (progressive schools) and non-kid-centered
homeschooling situations (where the parent had an ideological axe to
grind, usually religious).  But certainly homeschooling CAN be used as
a way to get a kid out of teacher-centered school and into kid-centered
learning.



Fri, 06 Jul 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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