Forth IDE 
Author Message
 Forth IDE

Hi All,
I am looking for an Integrated Design Environment for Forth. I am
aware of Programmer Editors such as Multiedit etc. They are nice,
syntax highlighting is very helpful, but I'd like to get more. An
ideal IDE shall have the following properties:

-- ANS94 compliant, selectable 16-bit and 32-bit implementations

-- Syntax highlighting

-- Syntax error checking "on fly" (ie whily I type). For instance, if
I type a word that does not exist (or cannot be accessed from that
point) IDE shall give me a valid comment/suggestion/message instantly,
as soon as I've typed the word

-- "Smart finishing", ie ability to finish long word automatically
when I type enough letters to distinguish it from other words; this
feature shall be selecteable, otherwise it might be too annoying.
Offcourse it shall work (mainly) on user-defined words, eg. as soon as
I defined a new word, IDE instantly shall be able to make smart
finishing when I refer to it. Also this feature shall understand
current context,ie shall not try to offer words from vocabularies that
are "off" at the point where I type.

-- Context-dependant "dynamic" help. If I press a hotkey (say, F1) it
shall display a help screen on the word that is pointed by
mouse/cursor. For user-defined words IDE shall automatically update
help by first few comments in the word definition and/or by word
definition itself. I think most feasible would be to extract all
comments between : and the first word in the body. For example, if I
define a word
: My_DUP_word ( a -- a a )
\ this word does...
\ bla-bla-bla...
DUP  ( other comments ignored) ;
then I shall get the following help when I press F1 on word
My_DUP_word:
   ( a -- a a )
   \ this word does...
   \ bla-bla-bla...

-- Instant stack window/diagrams. In a simple case it would be helpful
to see numbers on D-stack and R-stack while I define a new word,
however it would be better to have a symbolic stack diagrams,
something like that:
 D-Stack: Aaaa Bbbb
 R-Stack: Cccc
where Aaaa, Bbbb, Cccc represent values left on stack by words Aaaa,
Bbbb, Cccc respectively. Unfortunatelly at this point of time I do not
have very clear vision how it could/should be done.

-- Ability to control/tailor IDE properties via a (Forth) script

Regards
  Alex



Thu, 23 Sep 2004 07:18:57 GMT  
 Forth IDE

Quote:

> -- Syntax highlighting

What syntax?  OK, vim has 'syntax highlighting' using some common Forth words.
What if you change them?  The colors will only annoy you once they cease to
have real meaning, when every green word is a number except for the green words
that aren't, and the blue words that ought to be green.  If you really want
'syntax highlighting', make something like ColorForth.

Quote:
> -- Syntax error checking "on fly" (ie whily I type). For instance, if
> I type a word that does not exist (or cannot be accessed from that
> point) IDE shall give me a valid comment/suggestion/message instantly,
> as soon as I've typed the word

This is tolerably easy, unless you have any non-default parsing words,
at which point it becomes mind-bogglingly difficult.

Quote:
> -- "Smart finishing", ie ability to finish long word automatically
> when I type enough letters to distinguish it from other words; this
> feature shall be selecteable, otherwise it might be too annoying.

yawn.  easy.

Quote:
> finishing when I refer to it. Also this feature shall understand
> current context,ie shall not try to offer words from vocabularies that
> are "off" at the point where I type.

Goodness gracious, *HOW?!*

Quote:
> -- Context-dependant "dynamic" help. If I press a hotkey (say, F1) it

yawn.  easy.  Even if you have multiple words of the same name, in different
vocabularies.  You might have to search to find the one you want.

Quote:
> -- Instant stack window/diagrams. In a simple case it would be helpful

OK, do you have an AI?  Could you share it, please?

Quote:
> -- Ability to control/tailor IDE properties via a (Forth) script

yawn.  easy.

Hey!  I've an idea!  Why don't you sit down and write your dream editor?
It's not that hard.  You might want to wait and learn something about Forth,
first.



Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:31:40 GMT  
 Forth IDE

Quote:

>Hi All,
>I am looking for an Integrated Design Environment for Forth.

Take a look at HolonForth (aka Holon).

Quote:
>-- Syntax highlighting

Emacs with gforth.el (recent version:
http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth.el) does this.

Quote:
>-- "Smart finishing", ie ability to finish long word automatically
>when I type enough letters to distinguish it from other words; this
>feature shall be selecteable, otherwise it might be too annoying.

Emacs can do this (also for ordinary text): M-/ completes the current
prefix to the last word starting with that prefix.

Quote:
>-- Context-dependant "dynamic" help. If I press a hotkey (say, F1) it
>shall display a help screen on the word that is pointed by
>mouse/cursor. For user-defined words IDE shall automatically update
>help by first few comments in the word definition and/or by word
>definition itself. I think most feasible would be to extract all
>comments between : and the first word in the body. For example, if I
>define a word
>: My_DUP_word ( a -- a a )
>\ this word does...
>\ bla-bla-bla...
>DUP  ( other comments ignored) ;
>then I shall get the following help when I press F1 on word
>My_DUP_word:
>   ( a -- a a )
>   \ this word does...
>   \ bla-bla-bla...

With Emacs and gforth.el, if you have created a TAGS file for your
source, you type M-. <RET>, and you are at the definition of the word
(which contains all the info.

Quote:
>-- Ability to control/tailor IDE properties via a (Forth) script

Emacs can be tailored via Emacs Lisp scripts.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html



Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:51:03 GMT  
 Forth IDE

Quote:

>Hi All,
>I am looking for an Integrated Design Environment for Forth. I am
>aware of Programmer Editors such as Multiedit etc. They are nice,
>syntax highlighting is very helpful, but I'd like to get more. An
>ideal IDE shall have the following properties:

[snip]

In addition to what you list, how about:

- A popup menu that lists all colon definitions in the currently
  open file (window)?  The list would be alphabetically sorted.
  A pick from the list would insert that word at the cursor
  location.

- The optional ability to use an editor window as the Forth console.
  Type a Forth word or phrase, press <enter>, the code is executed
  and the textual output is "typed" right back into the editor window.

- An online subject-sorted glossary.

I agree that the IDE source editor should itself be written in
Forth so that the individual can easily customize the editor
to his/her liking.

Doug Hoffman



Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:55:45 GMT  
 Forth IDE

Quote:

>Hi All,
>I am looking for an Integrated Design Environment for Forth. I am
>aware of Programmer Editors such as Multiedit etc. They are nice,
>syntax highlighting is very helpful, but I'd like to get more. An
>ideal IDE shall have the following properties:

>-- ANS94 compliant, selectable 16-bit and 32-bit implementations
>-- Syntax highlighting
>-- Syntax error checking "on fly" (ie whily I type). For instance, if
>-- "Smart finishing", ie ability to finish long word automatically
>-- Context-dependant "dynamic" help. If I press a hotkey (say, F1) it
>-- Instant stack window/diagrams. In a simple case it would be helpful
>-- Ability to control/tailor IDE properties via a (Forth) script

If you want such a beast, you have to write it yourself.
The combination is far to specific that you could find it in
stock. However. You are on the wrong trail. You mustn't look
for a Forth with all those properties. You must look for
a Forth with good interface properties (most are nowadays).
Then load off much of this what you want to an editor,
(there are zillions to choose from). Then you may come very
close to what you want.

More concrete, if you are on linux: use ``we''. we is an editor
that imitates the Borland IDE on Windows, but it has no compiler,
just hooks for compilers. Now interface ciforth to it.
Look up OS-IMPORT in its library. (LAB file).

emacs reportedly can do similar things. But if you knew emacs
you probably were not asking this.

Quote:
>Regards
>  Alex

---
Albert
--
Albert van der Horst,Oranjestr 8,3511 RA UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
To suffer is the prerogative of the strong. The weak -- perish.



Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:57:44 GMT  
 Forth IDE

Quote:

> >I am looking for an Integrated Design Environment for Forth.
> Take a look at HolonForth (aka Holon).

Thanks, I am aware of Holon

Quote:
> >-- Syntax highlighting
> Emacs with gforth.el (recent version:
> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth.el) does this.

[snipped]

Quote:
> >-- Ability to control/tailor IDE properties via a (Forth) script
> Emacs can be tailored via Emacs Lisp scripts.

Thanks a lot, this approach is perfectly feasible.
Let me present my understanding how the "Forth IDE" issue could be
handled (correct me if I missed something):

(1) A standard editor + Forth system
I guess most people does it that way. Currently I use MED and Spf4.
This approach is very simple (for example, it takes few minutes to set
up syntax highliging in MED), and I guess for an experienced Forth
programmer is perfectly OK. For a newbie it just not very productive
because of luck of context-sensitive help and debug tools. However a
Forth system is flexible enough to write debug words etc.
For bigger projects this approach puts some stress on programmer
because he/she shall keep too much stuff in mind. I would prefer if
computer serves me rather than I serve computer :-)

(2) An flexible standard editor integrated with a Forth system.
Basically this is what you've proposed. Perhaps Emacs is the most
flexible/powerful GPL editor, while gForth is one of the most
prominent GPL Forth systems. I guess something similar could be done
using a powerful commercial editor, say, Multiedit.
The only problem is a learning curve. Please bear in mind that I am an
electronic engineer rather than a programmer. I suspect that time I
shall spend learning Emacs and gForth would not be recovered by
increased productivity. Similar results (ie productivity) could be
achieved if I "invest" the same amount of time into (1).

(3) Fully integrated system, similar to Holon.
Holon is very nice, it is a closest to my "dream IDE" I've ever seen
(but I would admit I did not try Forth Inc products yet). However,
Holon supports only pretty outdated targets HC11 and x86. Also it is
DOS-based, and its editor is not very convenient for me.
I could try to write my own system, as Julian Fondren suggested, but
probably it will take even more time to implement than option (2).



Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:56:49 GMT  
 Forth IDE

Quote:

> Let me present my understanding how the "Forth IDE" issue could be
> handled (correct me if I missed something):

> (1) A standard editor + Forth system
> I guess most people does it that way. Currently I use MED and Spf4.
> This approach is very simple (for example, it takes few minutes to set
> up syntax highliging in MED), and I guess for an experienced Forth
> programmer is perfectly OK. For a newbie it just not very productive
> because of luck of context-sensitive help and debug tools. However a
> Forth system is flexible enough to write debug words etc.
> For bigger projects this approach puts some stress on programmer
> because he/she shall keep too much stuff in mind. I would prefer if
> computer serves me rather than I serve computer :-)

> (2) An flexible standard editor integrated with a Forth system.
> Basically this is what you've proposed. Perhaps Emacs is the most
> flexible/powerful GPL editor, while gForth is one of the most
> prominent GPL Forth systems. I guess something similar could be done
> using a powerful commercial editor, say, Multiedit.
> The only problem is a learning curve. Please bear in mind that I am an
> electronic engineer rather than a programmer. I suspect that time I
> shall spend learning Emacs and gForth would not be recovered by
> increased productivity. Similar results (ie productivity) could be
> achieved if I "invest" the same amount of time into (1).

Depending on how integrated you want, our products are pretty
much like (2).  SwiftForth and the SwiftX host can attach to most
editors (linkages are predefined for about a dozen common ones),
so that from the Forth command window you can select a word
and with one more click switch to the editor which is automatically
positioned at the correct file/line where the word is defined.  These
products also have quite a few debugging tools built in.

In addition to the editors that have been mentioned, ED for Windows
(ED4W) has coloring support for Forth, although I personally don't
find that very helpful.  ED may be found at www.getsoft.com
(although their server doesn't seem to be responding at the moment).

Cheers,
Elizabeth



Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:20:17 GMT  
 Forth IDE

Quote:

> > -- Syntax highlighting

> What syntax?  OK, vim has 'syntax highlighting' using some common Forth words.
> What if you change them?  The colors will only annoy you once they cease to
> have real meaning, when every green word is a number except for the green words
> that aren't, and the blue words that ought to be green.  If you really want
> 'syntax highlighting', make something like ColorForth.

Yes, you named it, ideally it should somethng similar to ColorForth,
highlighting words according to their semantic.

Quote:
> > -- Syntax error checking "on fly" (ie whily I type). For instance, if
> > I type a word that does not exist (or cannot be accessed from that
> > point) IDE shall give me a valid comment/suggestion/message instantly,
> > as soon as I've typed the word

> This is tolerably easy, unless you have any non-default parsing words,
> at which point it becomes mind-bogglingly difficult.

Yes, I would like to check no-standard (user defined) words as well,
it is a major point. Standard words typically are short, and everyone
use them frequently, thus it is not much point to check and "smart
update" them. To make my programms readable I would prefer to define
long self-descriptive word names. Then I'd like to save time on
typing, also I would not like to starve to remember them precisely.

Quote:
> > -- "Smart finishing", ie ability to finish long word automatically
> > when I type enough letters to distinguish it from other words; this
> > feature shall be selecteable, otherwise it might be too annoying.

> yawn.  easy.

Agree, it is not too difficult, one can extract all word names, sort
them alphabetically and then offer a "nearest match". I just wondered
which Forth system has those features already implemented.

Quote:
> > finishing when I refer to it. Also this feature shall understand
> > current context,ie shall not try to offer words from vocabularies that
> > are "off" at the point where I type.

> Goodness gracious, *HOW?!*

Same way, however words shall be kept in groups related to vocabulary.
Group is enabled/disabled, say, regarding to the result from ORDER
word.

Quote:
> > -- Context-dependant "dynamic" help. If I press a hotkey (say, F1) it

> yawn.  easy.  Even if you have multiple words of the same name, in different
> vocabularies.  You might have to search to find the one you want.
> > -- Instant stack window/diagrams. In a simple case it would be helpful

> OK, do you have an AI?  Could you share it, please?

No, I do not have AI. I think compiler could make few extra attributes
for each word dedicated for stack diagrams. For "basic" words those
attributes are pre-defined, for other words attributes shall be
calculated basing on previously defined attributes.

Quote:
> > -- Ability to control/tailor IDE properties via a (Forth) script

> yawn.  easy.

Yes, but only for self-made IDE, ie in case if IDE is not
off-the-shelf

Quote:
> Hey!  I've an idea!  Why don't you sit down and write your dream editor?
> It's not that hard.  You might want to wait and learn something about Forth,
> first.

It still is an option. However it is not an editor. It is a Forth
system combined with editor. You've got the point, I am not very
experienced in Forth, this is why I ask questions.
Probably more experienced Forth programmers would not have a need for
such a tool. This "dream Forth" would be most useful for beginners. A
user-friendly IDE can make learning curve much easier. I guess until
such a tool is available many newbies would prefer to deal with C and
Delphi.


Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:44:46 GMT  
 Forth IDE

Quote:


>> > finishing when I refer to it. Also this feature shall understand
>> > current context,ie shall not try to offer words from vocabularies that
>> > are "off" at the point where I type.

>> Goodness gracious, *HOW?!*
> Same way, however words shall be kept in groups related to vocabulary.
> Group is enabled/disabled, say, regarding to the result from ORDER
> word.

It's impossible.

Say you define a wordlist in one source file and later use it in
another.  How on earth is the editor to know what's going on?

How is the editor to know about user defined parsing words?

Quote:
>> OK, do you have an AI?  Could you share it, please?
> No, I do not have AI. I think compiler could make few extra attributes
> for each word dedicated for stack diagrams.

It's easier and more reliable to yank the stack diagram from the
source.

Andrew.



Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:00:38 GMT  
 Forth IDE

Quote:

> >> > finishing when I refer to it. Also this feature shall understand
> >> > current context,ie shall not try to offer words from vocabularies that
> >> > are "off" at the point where I type.

> >> Goodness gracious, *HOW?!*

> > Same way, however words shall be kept in groups related to vocabulary.
> > Group is enabled/disabled, say, regarding to the result from ORDER
> > word.

> It's impossible.

> Say you define a wordlist in one source file and later use it in
> another.  How on earth is the editor to know what's going on?

> How is the editor to know about user defined parsing words?

I do not mean just an editor. I've meant IDE, ie an editor combined
with Forth compiler. Editor does not know what's going on, compiler
does. At each point of source text compiler knows current words order.
I mean that my source text can be compiled as I type, and IDE can use
current compilation results to assist me.

Quote:
> >> OK, do you have an AI?  Could you share it, please?

> > No, I do not have AI. I think compiler could make few extra attributes
> > for each word dedicated for stack diagrams.

> It's easier and more reliable to yank the stack diagram from the
> source.

I'd like to save time. It is possible create stack diagrams manually,
but it is a time consuming process prone to human errors. It can be
automated.
I think compiler can process words as I type them (no optimisation
required at that point). The current word might be incomplete, and it
cannot be executed. But I think in most cases a kind of stack diagram
can be shown instantly as I type.


Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:53:30 GMT  
 Forth IDE

Quote:


> >Hi All,
> >I am looking for an Integrated Design Environment for Forth. I am
> >aware of Programmer Editors such as Multiedit etc. They are nice,
> >syntax highlighting is very helpful, but I'd like to get more. An
> >ideal IDE shall have the following properties:

> >-- ANS94 compliant, selectable 16-bit and 32-bit implementations
> >-- Syntax highlighting
> >-- Syntax error checking "on fly" (ie whily I type). For instance, if
> >-- "Smart finishing", ie ability to finish long word automatically

H3sm does English-like abbreviations in the interpreter, in
very little code.  wo. is words . q. is quit .

          seedoc for Hohensee's 3-stack machine on cLIeNUX        . (p11 of 40)
   H3sm allows use of a period to abbreviate keywords, interpretively or
   in a colon definition. The H3sm word to quit H3sm is quit. There's no
   other words starting with "qu" in the base system, so q. is valid for
   quit also. I've left an unabbreviator definition as an exercise to the
   user. ' [some abbreviation] dumpline is one way to see what a
   particular abbreviation will interpret as, if anything.

   ifabbreviation is always called after ifword, so actual definitions
   ending in ., if any, take precedence. The search ifabbreviation uses
   always runs to the base of the dictionary, so that ifabbreviation
   always finds the oldest word that the given abbreviation is a possible
   alias for. This means that core words will have the short
   abbreviations, and they won't be superceded by later definitions.
   (Thanks JET.)

Rick Hohensee



Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:55:19 GMT  
 Forth IDE

Quote:


> > > -- Syntax error checking "on fly" (ie whily I type). For instance,
> > > if I type a word that does not exist (or cannot be accessed from
> > > that point) IDE shall give me a valid comment/suggestion/message
> > > instantly, as soon as I've typed the word
> > This is tolerably easy, unless you have any non-default parsing
> > words, at which point it becomes mind-bogglingly difficult.

It occurs to me this could be made a whole lot easier for most parsing
words, if we were willing to factor them wholesale.

Almost always, a parsing word will first parse and then do something
else.  If you set up a way to tell each parsing word to *just parse*
then you could at least separate code from data-to-parse.



Sat, 25 Sep 2004 01:36:47 GMT  
 Forth IDE

Quote:



> >> > finishing when I refer to it. Also this feature shall understand
> >> > current context,ie shall not try to offer words from vocabularies
> >> > that are "off" at the point where I type.
> >> Goodness gracious, *HOW?!*
> > Same way, however words shall be kept in groups related to
> > vocabulary.  Group is enabled/disabled, say, regarding to the result
> > from ORDER word.
> It's impossible.
> Say you define a wordlist in one source file and later use it in
> another.  How on earth is the editor to know what's going on?
> How is the editor to know about user defined parsing words?

If the editor compiles your code as you write it, then it can look them
up in the dictionary.  It could even notice how much gets parsed when
the parsing word executes each time, and remember that.  So the next
time it shows you the file where the parsing word is used, it can mark
the parsed text for you.

But what if it parses one amount one time and a different amount the
next time?  Say that you do PARSE and one time it finds a space on the
stack, while the next time it finds a " ?  Maybe it should show you the
way it parsed the latest time the code executed.



Sat, 25 Sep 2004 01:42:47 GMT  
 Forth IDE

Quote:

> > What syntax?  OK, vim has 'syntax highlighting' using some common Forth words.
> > What if you change them?  The colors will only annoy you once they cease to
> > have real meaning, when every green word is a number except for the green words
> > that aren't, and the blue words that ought to be green.  If you really want
> > 'syntax highlighting', make something like ColorForth.

> Yes, you named it, ideally it should somethng similar to ColorForth,
> highlighting words according to their semantic.

ED for Windows also has this (as I mentioned in a separate post).  I
find
it more annoying than helpful, and usually turn it off.  But this is
obviously
a very personal thing, so it's nice that some products have it for those
who
want it.

Quote:
> > > -- Syntax error checking "on fly" (ie whily I type). For instance, if
> > > I type a word that does not exist (or cannot be accessed from that
> > > point) IDE shall give me a valid comment/suggestion/message instantly,
> > > as soon as I've typed the word

> > This is tolerably easy, unless you have any non-default parsing words,
> > at which point it becomes mind-bogglingly difficult.

> Yes, I would like to check no-standard (user defined) words as well,
> it is a major point. Standard words typically are short, and everyone
> use them frequently, thus it is not much point to check and "smart
> update" them. To make my programms readable I would prefer to define
> long self-descriptive word names. Then I'd like to save time on
> typing, also I would not like to starve to remember them precisely.

You can achieve much the same result by typing your definitions directly
into the command window, where they are immediately compiled (and, of
course, error-checked in the process) and immediately available for
execution.

In other words, you have a procedural model of typing in your
definitions
to the Forth and testing them one at a time, bottom-up, which is a very
efficient process, rather than writing huge vast programs in an editor
and then trying to debug the whole thing.

In SwiftForth (and probably other systems as well) you can copy the text
for successful definitions to the clipboard and paste it into a file
open
in your editor.  SwiftForth can actually display a window showing just
what you've typed (omitting system responses) to facilitate this.

Quote:
> > > -- "Smart finishing", ie ability to finish long word automatically
> > > when I type enough letters to distinguish it from other words; this
> > > feature shall be selecteable, otherwise it might be too annoying.

> > yawn.  easy.

> Agree, it is not too difficult, one can extract all word names, sort
> them alphabetically and then offer a "nearest match". I just wondered
> which Forth system has those features already implemented.

SwiftForth has "smart finishing" for command line entries.  It keeps
previously lines typed in a (rather large) circular buffer, and if you
type part of a previously-typed command line and press the Tab key it
will guess a completion.  Successive presses of the Tab key will cycle
through other command-line entries that match what you've typed so far.

You can also use the up- or down-arrow keys to access prior command
lines (in opposite directions through the circular buffer), and
edit the result prior to pressing Enter to actuate it.

Everybody has a personal view of what conveniences are most important.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

--
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310-491-3356
5155 W. Rosecrans Ave. #1018  Fax: +1 310-978-9454
Hawthorne, CA 90250
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================



Sat, 25 Sep 2004 01:58:36 GMT  
 Forth IDE

 <SNIP>

Quote:
>>> OK, do you have an AI?  Could you share it, please?

>> No, I do not have AI. I think compiler could make few extra attributes
>> for each word dedicated for stack diagrams.

>It's easier and more reliable to yank the stack diagram from the
>source.

You missed something here. Of course you do that. And then you check
with a stack diagram derived from the code and the data of constituent
words, to reveal any error in the comment or in the code.

Quote:

>Andrew.

--
Albert van der Horst,Oranjestr 8,3511 RA UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
To suffer is the prerogative of the strong. The weak -- perish.



Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:26:34 GMT  
 
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