GForth On Mac OS-X 
Author Message
 GForth On Mac OS-X

Offline a colleague of mine tried to build GForth for Mac OS X ... but
choked on trying to create a folder I could drag to a new Mac to run
GForth there.

Is that enough of a description to inspire someone to share the
crucial insight needed next?

Said colleague has already found at least one page on the web
discussing how to build GForth, but that page says how to build a
GForth to patch into the system with root privileges, rather than
something that can just run without install.

Interesting questions?

Hopefully yes.  Cluelessly, curiously, thankfully yours, Pat LaVarre

P.S. In the Google archive this post should appear attached to older
posts of the same Subject.



Sun, 04 Sep 2005 05:56:27 GMT  
 GForth On Mac OS-X

Quote:

> Offline a colleague of mine tried to build GForth for Mac OS X ... but
> choked on trying to create a folder I could drag to a new Mac to run
> GForth there.

Built OK for me. I don't understand "create a folder I could drag to a new
Mac". Perhaps an HFS+ name conflict? File names in HFS+ preserve case
but do not recognize it, so you can't have "GForth" and "gforth" in the
same directory.

--
| John Doty             "You can't confuse me, that's my job."




Sat, 03 Sep 2005 20:55:46 GMT  
 GForth On Mac OS-X

Quote:

> Offline a colleague of mine tried to build GForth for Mac OS X ... but
> choked on trying to create a folder I could drag to a new Mac to run
> GForth there.

> Is that enough of a description to inspire someone to share the
> crucial insight needed next?

> Said colleague has already found at least one page on the web
> discussing how to build GForth, but that page says how to build a
> GForth to patch into the system with root privileges, rather than
> something that can just run without install.

I don't know what any of that means, but at this very moment I'm in
Cupertino CA teaching an Open Firmware course to a bunch of Apple
engineers, and we're using GForth on OS X Jaguar in a classroom.
AFAIK all the students just installed their GForths from a shared
server into their private machines wherever they wanted it and
are running happily.

I've written a nice Open Firmware compatibility
suite that runs virtually without change on both SwiftForth and
GForth, which I've used in a number of these classes.

Cheers,
Elizabeth



Sun, 04 Sep 2005 13:10:31 GMT  
 GForth On Mac OS-X


Quote:
> I don't know what any of that means, but at this very moment I'm in
> Cupertino CA teaching an Open Firmware course to a bunch of Apple
> engineers, and we're using GForth on OS X Jaguar in a classroom.
> AFAIK all the students just installed their GForths from a shared
> server into their private machines wherever they wanted it and
> are running happily.

Very curious, why do you use GForth?
Why not Power MacForth, once owned by your company?
Money question only?
And why not use the OF Forth itself, no doubt people with
so much experience like yourself or found in your company,
or Forth veterans like John Hall at Apple pull out editors and
other necessary tools for OF Forth out of your sleeves in 'no time'.

regards
-Roelf



Sun, 04 Sep 2005 17:37:05 GMT  
 GForth On Mac OS-X

Quote:

> I don't understand "create a folder I could drag
> to a new Mac".

Thanks for asking, sorry I was unclear, hope you think the talk is
fun.  I agree this point is key.

The root trouble here is that GForth freely gives us drag & drop
install from the web for Windows & Linux but does not yet freely give
us the same for Mac OS X.  From where I live, that's bait & switch, if
I may be allowed to fail to admire every tiny feature of software I
get gratis.

Last time I visited this issue, someone on the net I chose to trust
whose name by now I have forgotten popped up and gave me a folder of
stuff.  In among the stuff was an executable.  If I drag that folder
to a new Mac and I launch the executable, it runs, and identifies
itself as GForth 0.5.0.  Works great.  Provided I don't do brain-dead
non-portable things like ( here 1 allot ! ), my same code works same
on Linux/ Win/ Mac OS X/ etc.

So now my new friend is now trying to create for me a folder which
will work the same way, but identify itself as GForth 0.6.x rather
than 0.5.x.

Have I made my goal clear?

I don't want to download & install the Mac Developer's Disk and/or gcc
myself so that I can create a Mac OS X GForth executable so I can
uninstall the Developer's Disk and/or gcc.  I just want to find a
fast, cheap, good path to a ready-to-run Mac OS X GForth executable I
choose to trust.

Apparently GForth by default instead produces a Win-style installer.
I don't want to have to run an installer every time I change hardware,
or reinstall Mac OS, or ....  The installer I want is the classic Mac
invisible installer of I drag a folder in to install, I drag that
folder to the trash to uninstall, done.

I know how to solve this for Windows.  First, I walk thru whatever
gyrations are necessary to acquire the three files:

cygwin1.dll
gforth.exe
gforth.fi

Then I shove those three files into a folder and voila, I seem to have
drag & drop install & uninstall.  I have no idea if these auto-install
changes to my registry etc. when I run them: hopefully they do not.  I
look forward to the day when someone uses MinGW gcc to reduce that to
two files: just gforth.exe and gforth.fi.

Stateless is a Good Thing.  The less state the better.  I understand
that as yet not everyone feels the pain of state in the same degree.
But perhaps by now why stateless is good for me is clear?

How then can I get a stateless GForth for Mac OS X?  I have a friend
who thinks gcc is easy to use.  What else does my friend need to know
to restore this illusion?

Cluelessly, curiously, thankfully yours, Pat LaVarre



Sun, 04 Sep 2005 22:34:50 GMT  
 GForth On Mac OS-X

Quote:



> > I don't know what any of that means, but at this very moment I'm in
> > Cupertino CA teaching an Open Firmware course to a bunch of Apple
> > engineers, and we're using GForth on OS X Jaguar in a classroom.
> > AFAIK all the students just installed their GForths from a shared
> > server into their private machines wherever they wanted it and
> > are running happily.

> Very curious, why do you use GForth?
> Why not Power MacForth, once owned by your company?
> Money question only?

Power MacForth is a very fine system, and if our objective
was to write Mac programs we would indeed use it.  But its
extra features make it less easily adaptible as a "replica" for
Open Firmware.

Quote:
> And why not use the OF Forth itself, no doubt people with
> so much experience like yourself or found in your company,
> or Forth veterans like John Hall at Apple pull out editors and
> other necessary tools for OF Forth out of your sleeves in 'no time'.

Open Firmware is a very specifically focussed Forth application.
It runs without an OS (before booting the OS), but does not
itself include most features required for a development environment
(e.g. editor, ability to manage source easily, etc.).  Indeed these
things could be added, but insofar as they are inappropriate to
OF's mission and not part of its standard, they will not be part
of systems that students use.  It works better for a classroom
environment to use GForth.

Sun actually has the best situation (not surprisingly, since they
invented it).  They have a Forth that is 100% compatible with
Open Firmware that runs under Solaris and therefore supports
whatever editors, etc., students are familiar with and is a fine
development environment.

Cheers,
Elizabeth



Sun, 04 Sep 2005 23:42:02 GMT  
 GForth On Mac OS-X
Ok, I'll bite a bit since I decided to get news working on my Mac tonight
and my wife's out of town... ;)

If you want a simple install for gforth on OSX, you should use the Fink
version.  You need two tools;

    http://fink.sourceforge.net/
    http://finkcommander.sourceforge.net/

Install the latest full release from each and then you will always be able
to get the latest (;almost;) gforth release and sources.  At least from
there, it and all its dependencies can be installed in one setting.

Now why gforth?  Because it's GNU licensed!

I have our OF compiler/tokenizer running on many systems right now; gforth
(OSX and cygwin), an internal variant of Wil Baden's This4th, Power MacForth
and SwiftForth.  I haven't had time to debug it on Win32Forth, or Wil
Baden's original yet, but that gets more into the portability of ANS Forth,
and another topic.  Our DTS people are working on the legal issues of
distributing the tokenizer to developers, which is where the GNU license may
have some advantage.  Yet another discussion...

As Elizabeth mentioned, since our OF is gone when OSX is alive, there's not
a good connection yet, but we've discussed the possibilities.  Since our
goal is mainly to boot the machine, our environment is mostly geared toward
a cross-compiler approach.  Unfortunately, pulling tools "out of our
sleeves" takes a distant back seat to getting products into production.

DaR



Mon, 05 Sep 2005 15:34:00 GMT  
 GForth On Mac OS-X

Quote:

> Date: 2003-03-19 23:45:08 PST  

> If you want a simple install for gforth on OSX,
> you should use the Fink version.  You need two
> tools;

> http://fink.sourceforge.net/
> http://finkcommander.sourceforge.net/
> Install the latest full release from each and then
> you will always be able to get the latest
> (;almost;) gforth release and sources.  At least
> from there, it and all its dependencies can be
> installed in one setting.

May I ask?

The question I mean to be asking is how do I construct a folder from
which GForth will run.  I need a folder that works even if I copy it
to a new Mac without using root privilege.  I prefer a folder I can
mail as a .zip file.

Is that the question you meant to be answering?

Is your answer that I can install Fink & FinkCommander on a
developer's machine and then somehow I can construct the folder?  Or
does installing Fink & FinkCommander only make the developer's machine
capable of running GForth?

Quote:
> > bait & switch, if I may be allowed to fail to
> > admire every tiny feature of software I get
> > gratis.

I'm assuming that the fat binary at GForth home includes Windows &
Linux but excludes Mac OS X for some good reason, like maybe none of
those volunteer programmers actually use Mac OS X.

Quote:
> http://fink.sourceforge.net/
> http://finkcommander.sourceforge.net/

I see I'm told I "can choose" "to download precompiled binary
packages".  That's what I want.  I don't want to download a tool to
let me download precompiled binary packages.  I want to download a
precompiled binary package, like we have already for GForth on
Windows, and like we have maybe excluding only "gforth.fi" for Linux.

I wonder if we have records of how many times people download binary
and how many times people download source.  Maybe nearly everyone
interested in Forth does want to know how to rebuild it from scratch.
I only know I'm not interested, except when the source is public
domain.

Cluelessly, curiously, thankfully yours, Pat LaVarre



Tue, 06 Sep 2005 00:07:41 GMT  
 GForth On Mac OS-X

Quote:

> How then can I get a stateless GForth for Mac OS X?
> I have a friend who thinks gcc is easy to use.
> What else does my friend need to know to restore
> this illusion?

Offline kindly I'm told the following procedure works.  I imagine this
procedure begins after an install of not only Mac OS X, but also the
Developer's Disk for Mac OS X.  This means the created binary by
default will only work for a Mac OS X of the level involved.  To
create a binary to work back to Mac OS X 10.0, we have to know more.
But all my knowledge here is second-hand, so I'm just guessing.

---

... gforth-0.6.1.tar.gz ...

Stuffit automatically decompressed it onto my desktop.

Then in a Terminal window:

cd ~/Desktop/gforth-0.6.1
./configure
make

... Then made a new folder, copied the files gforth, gforth.fi,
COPYING and README (the latter two required for legality) to it using
option-drag ...

---

Pat LaVarre



Tue, 06 Sep 2005 01:32:33 GMT  
 GForth On Mac OS-X


Quote:
> Ok, I'll bite a bit since I decided to get news working on my Mac tonight
> and my wife's out of town... ;)

> If you want a simple install for gforth on OSX, you should use the Fink
> version.  You need two tools;

>     http://fink.sourceforge.net/
>     http://finkcommander.sourceforge.net/

> Install the latest full release from each and then you will always be able
> to get the latest (;almost;) gforth release and sources.  At least from
> there, it and all its dependencies can be installed in one setting.

> Now why gforth?  Because it's GNU licensed!

> I have our OF compiler/tokenizer running on many systems right now; gforth
> (OSX and cygwin), an internal variant of Wil Baden's This4th, Power MacForth
> and SwiftForth.  I haven't had time to debug it on Win32Forth, or Wil
> Baden's original yet, but that gets more into the portability of ANS Forth,
> and another topic.  Our DTS people are working on the legal issues of
> distributing the tokenizer to developers, which is where the GNU license may
> have some advantage.  Yet another discussion...

Don't you fear, I have absolutely no interest or knowledge in GNU
license matters, the only 'gnu' I know is an animal (and spelled
differently).

Quote:

> As Elizabeth mentioned, since our OF is gone when OSX is alive, there's not
> a good connection yet, but we've discussed the possibilities.

Interesting.

Quote:
> Since our
> goal is mainly to boot the machine, our environment is mostly geared toward
> a cross-compiler approach.  Unfortunately, pulling tools "out of our
> sleeves" takes a distant back seat to getting products into production.

> DaR

I thank you both, Elisabeth Rather and you, for replying and
the very welcome information.

As for the extra tools to make living in the Mac OF a little
more comfortable, I guess some of us manage  (a bit).

back to the news on my tv
regards
-Roelf



Wed, 07 Sep 2005 06:51:59 GMT  
 GForth On Mac OS-X

Quote:

>Offline a colleague of mine tried to build GForth for Mac OS X ... but
>choked on trying to create a folder I could drag to a new Mac to run
>GForth there.

After "./configure; make" you can just take the build folder to the
next machine, and run gforth from there, or "make install".

Also, Jorge Acereda Macia should have the the fink version of 0.6.1
ready by now or real soon now.

Quote:
>Said colleague has already found at least one page on the web
>discussing how to build GForth, but that page says how to build a
>GForth to patch into the system with root privileges, rather than
>something that can just run without install.

Actually, root priviledges are not necessary, you just need permission
to write where you want to install.  Take a look at --prefix and
related configure options (run ./configure --help).  E.g., I test the
installation on all machines without being root.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html



Sat, 10 Sep 2005 04:20:57 GMT  
 GForth On Mac OS-X

Quote:

>The root trouble here is that GForth freely gives us drag & drop
>install from the web for Windows & Linux

I have missed that until now.

Quote:
>Apparently GForth by default instead produces a Win-style installer.

Missed that, too:-).

Quote:
>I know how to solve this for Windows.  First, I walk thru whatever
>gyrations are necessary to acquire the three files:

>cygwin1.dll
>gforth.exe
>gforth.fi

>Then I shove those three files into a folder and voila, I seem to have
>drag & drop install & uninstall.

If you want just that, for MacOS X (and any other Unix) you just need
two files:

gforth
gforth.fi

You'll miss out on the documentation, gforth-fast, gforth-itc, image
generation, being able to look in the sources, etc., but yes, that's
certainly sufficient.

E.g.:

[template:~/xxxgforthtest/128.130.173.38/build] anton% cp gforth gforth.fi /tmp
[template:~/xxxgforthtest/128.130.173.38/build] anton% cd
[template:~] anton% /tmp/gforth
Gforth 0.6.1, Copyright (C) 1995-2003 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
Gforth comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `license'
Type `bye' to exit

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html



Sat, 10 Sep 2005 04:31:39 GMT  
 GForth On Mac OS-X

Quote:

>I'm assuming that the fat binary at GForth home includes Windows &
>Linux but excludes Mac OS X for some good reason, like maybe none of
>those volunteer programmers actually use Mac OS X.

I don't know what fat binary you mean.  For Gforth 0.5.0 there are
binary distributions on http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/ for

Linux-Intel (libc6 and libc5)
MacOS X
Win32/Cygwin
DOS/Go32

The reasons for the Linux-Intel bindists are that they provide better
speed than just the default configuration.  That's not an issue for
non-Intel processors.

The reason for the Win32 and DOS bindists is that they are relatively
hard to build.  The reason for the MacOS X bindist is that someone
contributed it.

Given that building Gforth 0.6.1 on MacOS X is straight-forward and
you get the same speed as we do, I don't see a point in producing a
bindist for MacOS X.  However, if you want a prepackaged binary, the
fink version should satisfy you.

Quote:
>I wonder if we have records of how many times people download binary
>and how many times people download source.

Data from February (0.5.0 only):

    310 /forth/gforth/gf050dos.zip
     66 /forth/gforth/gforth-0.5.0-i386-pc-linux-gnu.tar.gz
     35 /forth/gforth/gforth-0.5.0-i386-pc-linux-gnulibc1.tar.gz
     42 /forth/gforth/gforth-0.5.0-osx.tar.gz
    253 /forth/gforth/gforth-0.5.0.exe
    184 /forth/gforth/gforth-0.5.0.tar.gz

Note that there are lots of other places for the source package and
the Linux packages, but AFAIK not for DOS and Win32 (.exe).

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html



Sat, 10 Sep 2005 04:45:42 GMT  
 GForth On Mac OS-X

Quote:
> Win32/Cygwin

Thank you for cleanly separating Win32/Cygwin from the plain Win32
that the MinGW gcc targets.

Quote:
> building Gforth 0.6.1 on MacOS X is straight-forward

I beg to differ.  Mac OS X as delivered can't compile Gnu C.

Installing the Developer's Disk might qualify as "straight-forward",
but I'm confident that knowing what tests are invalid while it is
installed is not straight-forward, because awhile back I watched
someone fail repeatedly to produce a build of GForth that could run on
a Mac OS X without the Developer's Disk installed.

I'm not sure myself how to determine if a Developer's Disk uninstall
is complete or not.  Basically, when I care, I install Mac OS X from
scratch and I don't install the Developer's Disk.

Quote:
> > I beg to differ.  Mac OS X as delivered can't compile Gnu C.

Furthermore, compiling Gnu C so that the resulting executable runs on
Mac OS X as antique as what was shipping a few months back is said to
be difficult.  Something about Gnu C introducing binary
incompatibilities in how it dynamically links an app to the C library.

Quote:
> For Gforth 0.5.0
> there are binary distributions on
> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/
> for ... MacOS X

A Mac OS X binary?  Really???  I don't see it.  But you do see it.
Hmmm.  How can that be.  Hmmm.  Perhaps I should try visiting all the
folders nearby?  Maybe by the GForth 0.5.0 binary for Mac OS X we mean
one of the binaries deprecated as "old", specifically:
http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/old/gforth-0.5.0-osx.ta...

Is that right?

Quote:
> The reason for the MacOS X bindist is that someone
> contributed it.

Offline I had heard explicitly that GForth policy was to Not
distribute a Mac OS X binary.  I had too little confidence in that
rumour to repeat it offline, thanks for explicitly disavowing it all
the same.

Can we hope to see a GForth 0.6.x binary added as soon as some kind
volunteer builds one?

Quote:
> However, if you want a prepackaged binary, the fink
> version should satisfy you.

My first glance says fetching a fink binary is rather less
straight-forward than fetching the GForth 0.5.0 binary for Mac OS X.
In particular, I have to install other stuff along the way: I can't
just download & run GForth.

Is my first glance wrong?

Quote:
> The reason for the Win32 and DOS bindists is that
> they are relatively hard to build.

Crystal clear as usual, thank you again.

Quote:
> what fat binary you mean.

By "fat binary" I mean to say with GForth, as with apps on the web, we
have a folder that contains more than one binary executable.  We don't
have a single Java Web Start .jar we "wrote once to run anywhere",
instead we have a binary executable for each of a series of favoured
systems and also GPL source that's more or less hard to build
elsewhere.

Fat binaries work great for me so long as my system is one of the
favoured systems.

With GForth, when Mac OS X is my system, I'm favoured for 0.5.0 but
not yet for 0.6.x.

Quote:
> Data from February (0.5.0 only):
> Note ... other places ... source ... Linux

Good fun, thanks for sharing.

Pat LaVarre



Sun, 11 Sep 2005 00:10:36 GMT  
 GForth On Mac OS-X

Quote:

>> building Gforth 0.6.1 on MacOS X is straight-forward

> I beg to differ.  Mac OS X as delivered can't compile Gnu C.

> Installing the Developer's Disk might qualify as "straight-forward", but
> I'm confident that knowing what tests are invalid while it is installed
> is not straight-forward, because awhile back I watched someone fail
> repeatedly to produce a build of GForth that could run on a Mac OS X
> without the Developer's Disk installed.

The one I built for you was a straightforward "./configure;make" build. No
tricks. You said it worked for you.

Quote:
> I'm not sure myself how to determine if a Developer's Disk uninstall is
> complete or not.  Basically, when I care, I install Mac OS X from
> scratch and I don't install the Developer's Disk.

Why uninstall it? Lots of nifty software out there in source form that
you might want to import...

--
| John Doty             "You can't confuse me, that's my job."




Sat, 10 Sep 2005 14:32:28 GMT  
 
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