Feedback to the Forth Interest Group 
Author Message
 Feedback to the Forth Interest Group

Category 1,  Topic 2
Message 77        Mon Feb 11, 1991
D.RUFFER [Dennis]            at 17:26 EST

Re: JACK WOEHR

 >         My point was that declining membership and raising rates
 > is a cyclic thing.  Also, it's no secret your advertising base
 > for 4D is evaporating, virtually non-existent.

Yes Jack, we are on the down side of the cycle right now, as are most user
based organizations right now.  The advertisers are also feeling the cyclic
crunch, but they have NOT completely evaporated. We will survive, and I thank
you all for sticking with us.

 > You still have no contact with the local chapters.

Untrue, we have the Chapter Desk in the FIG offices that handles any enquires.
Ask for Kent Stafford if any of you need anything.

 > Also, you didn't answer my question about fluffing the Board up
 > with hand-picked patsies.

I'm sorry, I forgot to address that one.  We made the election process very
clear to all of you, and we followed our Bylaws precisely.  The election
process was open to anyone who could generate enough support, yet, Jack you
were the only one who even bothered to submit a petition.  Unfortunately, you
were unable to gather enough signatures to meet the requirements.  Personally,
I was sorry that was the case.  I was looking forward to letting our members
vote.  However, the rules were clear, and it would have served no purpose to
spend money on a ballot process when there was no competition for the
positions.

Better luck next time!

 >  1) I still care what happens to FIG.

Great!  Then why not suggest workable solutions rather than engage in personal
bashing?

 >  2) The Board is still an assortment of prize chumps.

My point exactly!  Thank you for your support!

   {B-{)>   DaR
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Sun, 01 Aug 1993 10:53:41 GMT  
 Feedback to the Forth Interest Group

 Date: 02-10-91 (02:09)              Number: 1110 of 1110 (Echo)
   To: DENNIS RUFFER                 Refer#: 1075
 From: JACK WOEHR                      Read: NO
 Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS     Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
 Conf: FORTH (58)                 Read Type: GENERAL (+)

 -> continue in our quest for adding more value to your FIG membership.
 -> We understand that this may cause some of you hardship, but please
 -> understand that the need was very real.
 ->

         My point was that declining membership and raising rates
 is a cyclic thing.  Also, it's no secret your advertising base
 for 4D is evaporating, virtually non-existent.

 -> On the topic of Chapter Coordinator, we have choosen to
 -> leave that position unfilled at the present time.  Since the subject
 -> comes from you Jack, I wonder if it is prompted by some resentment
 -> on your part. However, our decision has been made, and we will live
 -> by it.

         Dennis, my point is that you guys are doing nothing but
 continuing in the same course that is driving FIG into the ground.
 You still have no contact with the local chapters. Also, you
 didn't answer my question about fluffing the Board up with hand-picked
 patsies.

         You have chased me out of the national organization but two
 things haven't changed:

         1) I still care what happens to FIG.

         2) The Board is still an assortment of prize chumps.

         =jax=

 NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
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Sun, 01 Aug 1993 10:53:39 GMT  
 Feedback to the Forth Interest Group

 Date: 02-10-91 (09:29)              Number: 1116 of 1116 (Echo)
   To: ANIL RODRIX                   Refer#: 1087
 From: JACK WOEHR                      Read: NO
 Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS     Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
 Conf: FORTH (58)                 Read Type: GENERAL (+)

 -> Its a shame re dues; it seems paid membership has been dropping every
 -> year recently. My notice still says $30, tho last year i kicked 10
 -> extra and was wondering whether to make it 20 more this year.

         The problem is that FIG is starving in the midst of plenty.
 I don't even want to *tell* you how much I get paid per FORTH article
 in "Embedded Systems Programming" magazine. ESP practically has to
 CHASE AWAY advertisers, their pages are so full of ads.

         HOW COME FIG CAN'T MAKE MONEY?

         HOW COME THEY HAVE LOST MOST OF THEIR ADVERTISERS?

         The answer is, as I have found over the years, they don't know
 what the hell they are doing running a magazine. Marlin *produces* a
 pretty nice magazine single handed, but that is where it ends. There
 is no marketing to speak of; marketing approaches to potential
 advertisers by FIG are amateurish: I know because we at VESTA receive
 every such advance. It is to weep.

 -> Come on you all; if you have dropped off how about signing up again?
 -> Or is the general consensus that if FIG does not serve a useful
 -> purpose to a wide audience let it die a dignified natural death ?

         The FIG ideal serves a purpose; the national/international
 organization serves its purpose poorly. The Board needs to resign
 and be replaced, now more than ever.

                 =jax=

 NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
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Sun, 01 Aug 1993 10:53:43 GMT  
 Feedback to the Forth Interest Group

 Date: 02-08-91 (16:13)              Number: 1087 of 1110
   To: JAX                           Refer#: 1041
 From: ANIL RODRIX                     Read: NO
 Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS     Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
 Conf: FORTH (58)                 Read Type: GENERAL (+)

 Its a shame re dues; it seems paid membership has been dropping every
 year recently. My notice still says $30, tho last year i kicked 10 extra
 and was wondering whether to make it 20 more this year.
 Come on you all; if you have dropped off how about signing up again?
 Or is the general consensus that if FIG does not serve a useful purpose
 to a wide audience let it die a dignified natural death ?

 PCRelay:PROPC -> #288 RelayNet (tm)
 4.10             Pittsburgh ProPC BBS (412) 321-6645
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Sun, 01 Aug 1993 10:53:36 GMT  
 Feedback to the Forth Interest Group

 Date: 02-11-91 (09:17)              Number: 1129 of 1138 (Echo)
   To: ANIL RODRIX                   Refer#: 1087
 From: RAY DUNCAN                      Read: NO
 Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS     Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
 Conf: FORTH (58)                 Read Type: GENERAL (+)

    >if FIG does not serve a useful purpose... let it die a dignified
    >natural death

 The death of FIG is at least 10 years overdue.  Too late for it to be
 dignified.

 NET/Mail : LMI Forth Board, Los Angeles, CA (213) 306-3530
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Mon, 02 Aug 1993 10:29:17 GMT  
 Feedback to the Forth Interest Group

 Date: 02-11-91 (07:15)              Number: 1133 of 1138
   To: JACK WOEHR                    Refer#: 1110
 From: STEVE PALINCSAR                 Read: NO
 Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS     Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
 Conf: FORTH (58)                 Read Type: GENERAL (+)

 In case you need any reinforcement in your position, after four or five
 years I let my FIG membership lapse, for precisely the concerns you have
 articulated.  I am part of the very decline of which you speak.

 PCRelay:DCINFO -> #16 MetroLink (tm) International Network
 4.10              DC Info Exchange MetroLink International Hub
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Mon, 02 Aug 1993 10:29:21 GMT  
 Feedback to the Forth Interest Group

 Date: 02-11-91 (07:24)              Number: 1134 of 1138
   To: DENNIS RUFFER                 Refer#: 1075
 From: STEVE PALINCSAR                 Read: NO
 Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS     Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
 Conf: FORTH (58)                 Read Type: GENERAL (+)

 Dennis, I don't exactly consider "adding value to your membership" to
 include a continuing heavy emphasis on articles in 4th Dim for the TI
 home computer and the Atari 800, and I don't consider it "value added"
 to neatly dispose of the only voice to get on the FIG board in years who
 was interested in trying to shake up a seemingly-moribund organization.
 Nor do I exactly consider it "value added" to go --what is it now, 5
 years?-- without a financial report to the membership that consisted of
 any more than "things are OK, trust me."

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Mon, 02 Aug 1993 10:29:23 GMT  
 Feedback to the Forth Interest Group

 Date: 02-12-91 (16:46)              Number: 1138 of 1138 (Echo)
   To: DENNIS RUFFER                 Refer#: 1119
 From: JACK WOEHR                      Read: NO
 Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT     Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
 Conf: FORTH (58)                 Read Type: GENERAL (+)

 -> Untrue, we have the Chapter Desk in the FIG offices that handles any
 -> enquires. Ask for Kent Stafford if any of you need anything.
 ->

         This style of Chapter Coordination is apparently inspired by the
 story of the little boy who lost a quarter one night and went home to
 look for it because the light was better there ...

 -> > Also, you didn't answer my question about fluffing the Board up >
 -> > with hand-picked patsies.
 -> I'm sorry, I forgot to address that one.  We made the election
 -> process very clear to all of you, and we followed our Bylaws
 -> precisely.  The election process was open to anyone who could
 -> generate enough support, yet, Jack you were the only one who even
 -> bothered to submit a petition.  Unfortunately, you were unable to
 -> gather enough signatures to meet the requirements.  Personally, I was
 -> sorry that was the case.  I was looking forward to letting our
 -> members vote.  However, the rules were clear, and it would have
 -> served no purpose to spend money on a ballot process when there was
 -> no competition for the positions.
 ->

         Yes, but according to Mike Elola, you did still have plans
 to seat on the Board persons who did not even *attempt* to gather
 signatures. For the third time I ask: did this sordid transaction
 materialize? FIG members would probably like to hear the answer.

                 =jax=

 NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
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Mon, 02 Aug 1993 10:29:26 GMT  
 Feedback to the Forth Interest Group
Category 1,  Topic 2
Message 83        Wed Feb 13, 1991
D.RUFFER [Dennis]            at 21:55 EST

Re: JACK WOEHR

 >     Yes, but according to Mike Elola, you did still have plans
 > to seat on the Board persons who did not even *attempt* to gather
 > signatures. For the third time I ask: did this sordid transaction
 > materialize? FIG members would probably like to hear the answer.

I have quoted the process to you many times before Jack.  The Board of
Directors appoints a Nominating Committee who is reponsible for finding people
who are willing to serve.  If there is no member opposition (i.e. petitions)
for the people that they choose, then the secretary casts a unanimous vote for
them.  If a petition is received (with the required number of signatures) then
a vote of the members is required.  It is a very simple process.  Why are you
having such a hard time understanding it?

I was actually looking forward to a vote this last year.  Although I was not
on the Nominating Committee, it would have seemed kind of pointless for them
to nominate someone who was going to submit a petition.  Let me ask it this
way Jack.  If the Nominating Committee has nominated you and you joined the
Board with no vote from the members, would still be using all the tastless
names you have attributed to the Directors so far?  I can tell you that the
tables could have been turned very easily.  However, I and several other
Directors were hoping to have a membership ballot.  Unfortunately, even you
could not generate enough support to make it happen.

So, yes we did add two new people to the Board of Directors.  Dr. C.H. Ting
and Dave Petty are now part of this group that you feel does not know how to
do their jobs.  I for one, hope they have thick enough skins to handle the
abuse.

It is a thankless job, but someone has to do it.

   {B-{)>   DaR
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Wed, 04 Aug 1993 09:41:47 GMT  
 Feedback to the Forth Interest Group
Category 1,  Topic 2
Message 84        Wed Feb 13, 1991
F.SERGEANT [Frank]           at 23:27 CST

 To Dennis, Jax, Anil, etc. - re FIG & dues hike
 .
 Well, I agree with Anil and add my hope that any FIG dropouts will  re-join.
I burned myself out a year or two ago over the FIG dues  question.  At the
time I thought the membership figures dropping  correlated with the rising
dues, and that the rising dues might have  *caused* the declining membership.
I felt then that a return to  $15/year dues as in FIG's "heyday" might turn
around the membership  decline. (And might help lower the average age of FIG
members.) I'd  rather have the magazine on cheap paper going to lots of people
than on  slick paper going to just a few.  And, yet, if the board says we
can't  drop the dues down, and must raise them again, I suppose they must
know.  Of course, I can't help wondering how high the dues will have to  be
when there are only 15 members left (joke).  Did I see that the  single issue
price for Forth Dimensions was to be $10.00?  Unless the  issue in question
has an article written by me, I feel that's a little  steep.
 .
 -- Frank
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Wed, 04 Aug 1993 09:41:50 GMT  
 Feedback to the Forth Interest Group
Category 1,  Topic 2
Message 86        Thu Feb 14, 1991
D.RUFFER [Dennis]            at 22:01 EST

Good one Frank!  We'll run right out and add you to the list. <smile>

Seriously though, unless someone is serious about taking over for Matt I would
hesitate making any change at all.  An address in the chapters listing, even a
bad one, indicates that there have been enough users in the area to support a
chapter.  When that group of users decides to do something about it again,
then they will (hopefully) let us know the new information.  In the mean time,
the bad address will serve to generate comments (like yours) that may prompt
someone in the area to do something about it.

FIG does not have either the manpower or money to investigate each of its
chapters.  A chapter is a member based orginization and it is up to its
members to keep FIG informed of changes in its status. When they do, we try
our best to make the changes in Forth Dimensions as soon as possible.  We do
this as a service to the local chapters, to promote their activities.  If they
do not care to take advantage of this service, it is their loss.

DaR
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Wed, 04 Aug 1993 09:41:55 GMT  
 Feedback to the Forth Interest Group
Category 1,  Topic 2
Message 85        Wed Feb 13, 1991
F.SERGEANT [Frank]           at 23:28 CST

 To FIG:
 .
 Since this is the Feedback to the Forth Interest Group topic, this  seems
like a good place to bring a a "chapter co-ordination" matter.
 .
 For ever now, FD has listed Matt Lawrence under the Austin, Texas  chapter
(PO Box 180409, Austin, TX 78718) - no phone number.  I don't  think he is
there any more.  Maybe a year or more ago I tried writing  him and got dead
silence.  I think the FIG office should try, and if  they can't get in touch
with him, should remove that listing from FD.   Does anyone know the
whereabouts of Matt?  If he can't be reached,  maybe FIG could contact some of
the Austin FIG members to see if  someone else would serve as the contact
point.  This would be a lot  better than the dead silence that I fear
inquirers are receiving now.   There is a lot of computer & semi-conductor &
college activity in  Austin.  Since FIG is hurting for members, it seems a
shame to waste  that possible source.  I'm not in Austin, but if you want to
list *me*  as a contact point, feel free.  If so, use this address: P.O. Box
1613,  San Marcos, TX  78667.  You can even list my phone number (512)  396-
4981.  I do not intend to run a chapter, but I might give the  occasional
caller an encouraging word.  (I'll say Pygmy is great and  the other Forths
are no good and that there never will be and never  should be a standard Forth
and that everyone should vote for Jax for  the board.  That's to give you an
incentive to find someone *else*!)
 .
 -- Frank
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Wed, 04 Aug 1993 09:41:52 GMT  
 Feedback to the Forth Interest Group

 Date: 02-12-91 (17:11)              Number: 1160 of 1161
   To: JACK WOEHR                    Refer#: 1116
 From: ANIL RODRIX                     Read: NO
 Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS     Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
 Conf: FORTH (58)                 Read Type: GENERAL (+)

 Wow, sure strong words ! I cant evaluate since I havent been personally
 involved much. I take it you think advertising can bring in the greater
 part of revenues - I assume at present dues bring in the major part ?
 However I still wonder why subscriptions ( or memberships ) have been
 dropping so drastically - seems there musst be many diehard forthers who
 now consider staying in FIG not worth it, and few newcomers to take
 their place.

 PCRelay:PROPC -> #288 RelayNet (tm)
 4.10             Pittsburgh ProPC BBS (412) 321-6645
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Wed, 04 Aug 1993 09:41:57 GMT  
 Feedback to the Forth Interest Group

 Date: 02-13-91 (12:00)              Number: 1161 of 1161 (Echo)
   To: STEVE PALINCSAR               Refer#: 1133
 From: JACK WOEHR                      Read: NO
 Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS     Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
 Conf: FORTH (58)                 Read Type: GENERAL (+)

 -> In case you need any reinforcement in your position, after four or
 -> five years I let my FIG membership lapse, for precisely the concerns
 -> you have articulated.  I am part of the very decline of which you
 -> speak.

         Reminds me of Will Rogers: "I don't belong to an organized
 political party. I'm a Democrat."

         Well, it would be *nice* if we belonged to a programming
 community that had a responsible and alert national organization
 to advocate our interests. But we aren't and it doesn't.

                 =jax=

 NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
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Wed, 04 Aug 1993 09:41:59 GMT  
 Feedback to the Forth Interest Group
Category 1,  Topic 2
Message 93        Sat Feb 16, 1991
D.RUFFER [Dennis]            at 16:05 EST

Re: Frank

 > I thought it would be happy to correct a listing so it might then
 > be able to get some new members.

Can you tell me how removing a local chapter from our list would get us new
members?

Re: Jack

 > If you had made Ting the president in place of the officious Mr.
 > Reiling, it would have offered more chances for success.

Dr. Ting is current Vice-President.  John Hall is President

 > ... not since they dropped the ball on the annual conventions.

Are you suggesting that we continue to pour money into an activity which
continually lost money?  Talk about "failure-oriented management".  Sheese

 >         Advertising *must* bring in the *major* portion of the
 > magazine's revenue, that is the economics of the situation.

<grin>  Just how many magazines have you run Jack?  Do you realize how few
Forth vendors are still in business (let alone those who are making any kind
of profit)?

I'm still trying to figure out any positive suggestions you are offering Jack.
Are you waiting until we place you onto the Board before you do anything about
the situation?  Do you expect that you can increase our respect for your
opinions by continuing to bash our abilities.  Give us some workable ideas.
Show us what you would do differently.  I gave you my support once, and placed
you in the position of Chapter Coordinator.  I saw an initial flurry of
activity, but soon you resorted to your more familuar mode of bashing the very
organization that you were supposed to be working for.  How are we supposed to
take your intentions now?

        "Trust is dead, ill payment killed it"

DaR
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Fri, 06 Aug 1993 10:00:17 GMT  
 
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