stand-alone x86/pc forth? 
Author Message
 stand-alone x86/pc forth?

I would like a forth system that runs stand-alone, not under some other
os like Linux or dos etc. Preferably on an x86 ibm pc type box, and
preferably free (in both senses). I haven't had any luck in my search
so far. Does anyone know of such a thing?

(Why do I want this? Because one day I'd like to use a computer system
 where I understand *all* the code, so the less code the better!)



Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:47:52 GMT  
 stand-alone x86/pc forth?

Quote:

> I would like a forth system that runs stand-alone, not
> under some other os like Linux or dos etc. Preferably
> on an x86 ibm pc type box, and preferably free (in both
> senses). I haven't had any luck in my search
> so far. Does anyone know of such a thing?

Sean Pringle has a couple of stand-alone systems
that are simple and free.  http://pringle.sphosting.com
Enth as in the n'th Forth, just another Forth, is
mostly ANS in feel but just boots from floppy and
has simple VGA text support.  Flux is a form of
ColorForth that is quite different than the one
created by Chuck Moore.

Chuck has a free ColorForth that is stand-alone but
which uses video hardware features that are not
support on a lot of machines so his software
only works with some video cards and PC brands.
There are other people however who have modified
the floppy and video drivers to work on other
systems. There are links from the above URL to
the mailing lists also where there people
discuss a number of these stand-alone Forth
systems.  I think the ones I mentioned require
386 or Pentium so will not run on antiques.

Quote:
> (Why do I want this? Because one day I'd like to use a
> computer system where I understand *all* the code, so
> the less code the better!)

Sometimes small code is also wierd code.  For instance
Chuck's ColorForth makes unusual use of the keyboard
and does lots of wierd things so although it is
available in source code and with growing documenation
it might not do what you need a computer to do.

The Enth package is more traditional and runs on
a much wider range of machines.  So you would
play with a Forth system as a stand-alone system
on a PC and not have to learn a whole new style
of Forth in the process.

It isn't free but Ting had some 386 eForth
ROMs.  One went into the socket on the video
card and got executed by the ROM BIOS by
default.  Since Ting's eForths are designed
to just support serial I/O that's the
three I/O routines, boot from ROM, serial I/O.
So by ignoring the existence of the keyboard,
mouse interface, video, sound card, network,
parallel port, floppy interface, hard disk
interfaces and whatever and turning your
PC into an embedded computer with nothing
but serial I/O support you would have a
system where you could understand *all*
the code very very quickly. (but it's
not free anyway. ;-)

Sean's Enth is a nice traditional style
piece of assembly software and Forth
system and has suport for more standard
devices.  It is free too.

Jeff Fox



Mon, 22 Mar 2004 14:01:01 GMT  
 stand-alone x86/pc forth?
Hello Greg,

One approach you might want to consider, which eliminates a lot of
complexity, is to look for a small embedded controller, that has a Forth
available for it.  You can then use your PC as a terminal/host.  This would
allow you to experiment with controlling some real hardware, while learning
ALL about the internals of Forth.  Such a board might not be free, but
there should be some very low cost boards available at your local surplus
store.

I can't point you to a specific example, but others probably can.

Just my thoughts,

Tom Zimmer

Quote:

> I would like a forth system that runs stand-alone, not under some other
> os like Linux or dos etc. Preferably on an x86 ibm pc type box, and
> preferably free (in both senses). I haven't had any luck in my search
> so far. Does anyone know of such a thing?

> (Why do I want this? Because one day I'd like to use a computer system
>  where I understand *all* the code, so the less code the better!)



Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:49:25 GMT  
 stand-alone x86/pc forth?

Quote:


>> I would like a forth system that runs stand-alone, not
>> under some other os like Linux or dos etc. Preferably
>> on an x86 ibm pc type box, and preferably free (in both
>> senses). I haven't had any luck in my search
>> so far. Does anyone know of such a thing?

>Sean Pringle has a couple of stand-alone systems
>that are simple and free.  http://pringle.sphosting.com
>Enth as in the n'th Forth, just another Forth, is
>mostly ANS in feel but just boots from floppy and
>has simple VGA text support.  Flux is a form of
>ColorForth that is quite different than the one
>created by Chuck Moore.

>Chuck has a free ColorForth that is stand-alone but
>which uses video hardware features that are not
>support on a lot of machines so his software
>only works with some video cards and PC brands.
>There are other people however who have modified
>the floppy and video drivers to work on other
>systems. There are links from the above URL to
>the mailing lists also where there people
>discuss a number of these stand-alone Forth
>systems.  I think the ones I mentioned require
>386 or Pentium so will not run on antiques.

>> (Why do I want this? Because one day I'd like to use a
>> computer system where I understand *all* the code, so
>> the less code the better!)

>Sometimes small code is also wierd code.  For instance
>Chuck's ColorForth makes unusual use of the keyboard
>and does lots of wierd things so although it is
>available in source code and with growing documenation
>it might not do what you need a computer to do.

>The Enth package is more traditional and runs on
>a much wider range of machines.  So you would
>play with a Forth system as a stand-alone system
>on a PC and not have to learn a whole new style
>of Forth in the process.

>It isn't free but Ting had some 386 eForth
>ROMs.  One went into the socket on the video
>card and got executed by the ROM BIOS by
>default.  Since Ting's eForths are designed
>to just support serial I/O that's the
>three I/O routines, boot from ROM, serial I/O.
>So by ignoring the existence of the keyboard,
>mouse interface, video, sound card, network,
>parallel port, floppy interface, hard disk
>interfaces and whatever and turning your
>PC into an embedded computer with nothing
>but serial I/O support you would have a
>system where you could understand *all*
>the code very very quickly. (but it's
>not free anyway. ;-)

>Sean's Enth is a nice traditional style
>piece of assembly software and Forth
>system and has suport for more standard
>devices.  It is free too.

>Jeff Fox

Sean must have made some changes in his web site as I could download the
Enth/Flux file successfully this time, when previous attempts failed.
Anyone who had trouble before should give it a try this time.

Walter Rottenkolber



Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:09:31 GMT  
 stand-alone x86/pc forth?

Quote:

> Hello Greg,

> One approach you might want to consider, which eliminates a lot of
> complexity, is to look for a small embedded controller, that has a Forth
> available for it.  You can then use your PC as a terminal/host.  This would
> allow you to experiment with controlling some real hardware, while learning
> ALL about the internals of Forth.  Such a board might not be free, but
> there should be some very low cost boards available at your local surplus
> store.

> I can't point you to a specific example, but others probably can.

> Just my thoughts,

> Tom Zimmer


> > I would like a forth system that runs stand-alone, not under some other
> > os like Linux or dos etc. Preferably on an x86 ibm pc type box, and
> > preferably free (in both senses). I haven't had any luck in my search
> > so far. Does anyone know of such a thing?

> > (Why do I want this? Because one day I'd like to use a computer system
> >  where I understand *all* the code, so the less code the better!)

I have an NMIY0020 ($79) from New Micros that I enjoy using. (It's not
the only board of theirs I have.) The 68HC11 is a capable bit simple
processor. There are lots of choices, including other processors, at
http://www.newmicros.com/  There are other makers, too, but I don't have
URLs at my fingertips.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



Tue, 23 Mar 2004 01:04:35 GMT  
 stand-alone x86/pc forth?

Quote:

>I would like a forth system that runs stand-alone, not under some other
>os like Linux or dos etc. Preferably on an x86 ibm pc type box, and
>preferably free (in both senses). I haven't had any luck in my search
>so far. Does anyone know of such a thing?

>(Why do I want this? Because one day I'd like to use a computer system
> where I understand *all* the code, so the less code the better!)

ciforth fits the bill
See
http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/ciforth.html

You need the generic system for ciforth.

Unpack it on a linux system.

make boot

will give you a bootable floppy that is readable under MSDOS too.

make hdboot

will give you a disk that can be installed on a modern (LBA)
hard disk, using the above floppy-system.
The only thing you need to configure is the RAM size;
it should work "out of the box".
(Your system may not have 640 Mbyte ram like the AI
system I made this for.)
Of course this is 32 bit protected mode.
The blocks installed on the hd contain an editor, assembler
and cracker (``SEE'').

Detailed texinfo information is part of the distribution. The
level of the generic system and the level of the generated system
are separately documented. All sources are present (and GPL-ed.)

Should I make a binary distribution, as I have done for
the linux version of ciforth?
( My web account is limited to 10 Mbyte. I hit that limit with
executables and sources, no pictures or animations. Forth is not my
only field. I have given priority to having older versions available
over binary distributions.)

--
Albert van der Horst,Oranjestr 8,3511 RA UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
To suffer is the prerogative of the strong. The weak -- perish.

--
Albert van der Horst,Oranjestr 8,3511 RA UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
To suffer is the prerogative of the strong. The weak -- perish.



Tue, 23 Mar 2004 01:14:42 GMT  
 stand-alone x86/pc forth?

Quote:

> I would like a forth system that runs stand-alone, not under some other
> os like Linux or dos etc. Preferably on an x86 ibm pc type box, and
> preferably free (in both senses). I haven't had any luck in my search
> so far. Does anyone know of such a thing?

> (Why do I want this? Because one day I'd like to use a computer system
>  where I understand *all* the code, so the less code the better!)

One of the guys at the SVFIG meeting (Notes
http://www.forth.org/svfig/kk/09-2001.html) with the John Carpenter

this guy os working on to make colorforth portable.

geakazoid



Wed, 24 Mar 2004 07:08:36 GMT  
 stand-alone x86/pc forth?
Greg,

As I recall, the original MVPFORTH could be made to boot from a floppy
and run without
any other support.

Glenn Haydon has it available & an online manual at
http://theforthsource.com/guide.html

Hope this is useful.

Vern
-------

Quote:

> I would like a forth system that runs stand-alone, not under some other
> os like Linux or dos etc. Preferably on an x86 ibm pc type box, and
> preferably free (in both senses). I haven't had any luck in my search
> so far. Does anyone know of such a thing?

> (Why do I want this? Because one day I'd like to use a computer system
>  where I understand *all* the code, so the less code the better!)



Wed, 24 Mar 2004 12:54:39 GMT  
 stand-alone x86/pc forth?

Quote:

> I would like a forth system that runs stand-alone, not under some other
> os like Linux or dos etc. Preferably on an x86 ibm pc type box, and
> preferably free (in both senses). I haven't had any luck in my search
> so far. Does anyone know of such a thing?

> (Why do I want this? Because one day I'd like to use a computer system
>  where I understand *all* the code, so the less code the better!)

Thanks very much to those who responded to this.
I'm sorry I've taken a while to get back to you.

I've checked out enth, and it looks great. The only slight hassle is that
it requires non-ancient video hardware (vesa 2.0) which my beloved old
386 (Curry) lacks. But hacking it to use something simpler might be a
good summer holidays project.

I've had a brief look at ciforth, and it also looks good.
If I can get that to run in Minix-vmd on the 386, that will probably
be the answer.

Anyhow, thanks again, you've really got me started now.

Greg O'Keefe



Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:34:10 GMT  
 stand-alone x86/pc forth?

Quote:



>> I would like a forth system that runs stand-alone, not under some other
>> os like Linux or dos etc. Preferably on an x86 ibm pc type box, and
>> preferably free (in both senses). I haven't had any luck in my search
>> so far. Does anyone know of such a thing?

>> (Why do I want this? Because one day I'd like to use a computer system
>>  where I understand *all* the code, so the less code the better!)

>Thanks very much to those who responded to this.
>I'm sorry I've taken a while to get back to you.

>I've checked out enth, and it looks great. The only slight hassle is that
>it requires non-ancient video hardware (vesa 2.0) which my beloved old
>386 (Curry) lacks. But hacking it to use something simpler might be a
>good summer holidays project.

Prior to Enth 0.4.0, Sean used 80x25 color text mode.  Now he just puts
the card into a suitable linear frame buffer mode and draws the characters
himself.  Try something previous to 0.4.0 for good-ol'-text mode.

Quote:
>I've had a brief look at ciforth, and it also looks good.
>If I can get that to run in Minix-vmd on the 386, that will probably
>be the answer.

I haven't tried the native ciforth yet.  I guess I ought to give it a shot.
-- Trey


Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:35:44 GMT  
 
 [ 10 post ] 

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