Wanted - public domain or shareware FORTH for 486 
Author Message
 Wanted - public domain or shareware FORTH for 486

I am a little disappointed with the standard windoze development
environment that comes with a 486 IBM Ambra PC (500MB hard drive,
8MB memory, built in CD player).  I want to be able to write some
applications using the CD player (sample portions of a compact disk)
and write your standard GUI type applications.  The machine does
come with a bundled sound sampler workbench, but I don't know of any
API that comes with it.....  Therefore, I want to consider using FORTH
as a language to use on this machine.  

Does anybody have a FORTH that they recommend for this kind of environment?
The cheaper, the better! :-)   I don't mind writing some of the tools
myself, providing the version of FORTH gives you the WORDS to be able
to do this.

A question and I hope not too stupid - When people are programming in
FORTH on a PC, do they typically bypass Windoze and write their own
GUI or use WORDS that do the same thing?  I have been using mainframes,
minis & Macs for many years and can't believe how brain-damaged
Windoze is - not to get off the subject of FORTH, but I think
C. Moore should have been contracted to write Windoze!!  It might
actually boot up without crashing and requiring endless hours of
tweeking....  Well, thanks for any advice or opinions on good FORTHS
for PCs....

----- Mike Winters    Peace Corps   (202)606-5543



Sun, 14 Jul 1996 20:31:11 GMT  
 Wanted - public domain or shareware FORTH for 486
: I am a little disappointed with the standard windoze development
: environment that comes with a 486 IBM Ambra PC (500MB hard drive,
: [...]
: Does anybody have a FORTH that they recommend for this kind of environment?
: The cheaper, the better! :-)   I don't mind writing some of the tools
: myself, providing the version of FORTH gives you the WORDS to be able
: to do this.

There are a couple Forths for Windows.  MPE has one I haven't seen,

that I have used (32-bit supposedly on the way) which can be had for

there is yet another Forth, Jax4th, by Jack Woehr (a.k.a. "jax"); I
haven't seen this one, and I don't have his email address handy, but
he hangs around c.l.f regularly...

: A question and I hope not too stupid - When people are programming in
: FORTH on a PC, do they typically bypass Windoze and write their own
: GUI or use WORDS that do the same thing?  I have been using mainframes,
: [...]

In the case of LMI's offering (the only one I'm familiar with), a
layer is provided above the Windows API to simplify common housekeeping
chores, but the full Windows API is available for use as well.  This
isn't really writing "their own GUI", I suppose, because the layer they've
built ultimately calls the Windows API itself.

The most painful thing I've found in using it is that the Windows API
has many function calls taking many parameters of mixed types.  C
handles this well, but with Forth it is very difficult to avoid clunky
stack thrashing (which will{*filter*}you when you port to the WIN32 API).
Variables (global or [if you roll your own] local) can help to some

(for the 16-bit Windows API), tomorrow all such accesses will need

APIs.  One way around this is to define fetch/store operators for all
Windows data types...but there are a *LOT* of Windows data types, and
putting operators for all of them in the 16-bit WinForth would use a
lot of header & dictionary space in an already tight system.

If anyone knows if/how MPE addresses this problem, I'd sure love to see
you post the solution!

Not holding my breath,

Sr. Software Engineer         ICOM, Inc.               414-321-8000
*[Any opinions expressed are mine, not necessarily those of ICOM.]*



Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:49:16 GMT  
 Wanted - public domain or shareware FORTH for 486

Quote:

>If you are working with Windows NT,
>there is yet another Forth, Jax4th, by Jack Woehr (a.k.a. "jax"); I
>haven't seen this one, and I don't have his email address handy, but
>he hangs around c.l.f regularly...

        Jax4th for Windows NT (or an older one for the Amiga) are
downloadable from the RealTime Control & Forth Board (RCFB), number
in .signature below \/\/\/\/

        =jax=
--



#SYSOP RCFB (303) 278-0364      #  - Sokko to Nampo



Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:03:05 GMT  
 Wanted - public domain or shareware FORTH for 486
: There are a couple Forths for Windows.  MPE has one I haven't seen,

: that I have used (32-bit supposedly on the way) which can be had for

: there is yet another Forth, Jax4th, by Jack Woehr (a.k.a. "jax"); I
: haven't seen this one, and I don't have his email address handy, but
: he hangs around c.l.f regularly...

: (stuff deleted)

: If anyone knows if/how MPE addresses this problem, I'd sure love to see
: you post the solution!

We are using MPE's ProForth for Windows and are very pleased with it.
Unlike LMI, they have ONLY 32-bit versions.  The package includes versions
for both Win32s and NT.

Dave, all those problems are caused by the Intel segmentation mess.  Under
Win32 everything is just a 32-bit value.  Numbers, addresses, handles, etc.
It's amazing how liberating it is!

I have used the WinForth explorer and I like ProForth much better.  It may
be the 32-bit environment or the fact that they supply all of the source
code.  I haven't seen the LMI Professional package so I guess I shouldn't
compare them too closely.

Here's the catch for the casual user:  ProForth is not cheap.  The package
runs about $1200.  For professional programmers it is worth every penny,
but probably out of reach for the hobbyist.

I took a peek at Jax4th and it really doesn't compare with either WinForth
or ProForth.  It uses the NT console API (a text-mode window), loads only
from blocks and has no interface to the Windows API.  However, it is
written to be compatible with the ANS standard which neither of the other
two systems are.  I imagine it could be used as a building block for a
richer system.  It is distributed under the GNU general license (I don't
know what impact that might have on commercial users).  You must have NT to
run it as Win32s does not support the console API.

I wonder if Forth Inc. will be offering a Forth system to run under
Windows?  (It'll probalbly load from screens anyway!)  Desipite all the
negative comments in this forum, Windows is what most users want and what
our customers are demanding.  Sink or swim.

Cheers,
Andrew
--



Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:33:45 GMT  
 Wanted - public domain or shareware FORTH for 486

        [ Sorry if this is a repeat, nn crashed while I was posting
before and I don't know if the earlier reply got posted - jax ]

Quote:
>I took a peek at Jax4th and it really doesn't compare with either WinForth
>or ProForth.  It uses the NT console API (a text-mode window), loads only
>from blocks and has no interface to the Windows API.

        Actually, it loads from files (using block-loaded examples by
Cliff King) and can open any DLL and call any call.

        By the way, I mentioned the companies that sell *professional*
Forth for NT, mentioning both noted above.

Quote:
> However, it is
>written to be compatible with the ANS standard which neither of the other
>two systems are.  I imagine it could be used as a building block for a
>richer system.  It is distributed under the GNU general license (I don't
>know what impact that might have on commercial users).  You must have NT to
>run it as Win32s does not support the console API.

        And it comes with full MASM 6.11 source.

                =jax=
--



#SYSOP RCFB (303) 278-0364      #  - Sokko to Nampo



Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:41:48 GMT  
 Wanted - public domain or shareware FORTH for 486

Quote:


>>If you are working with Windows NT,
>>there is yet another Forth, Jax4th, by Jack Woehr (a.k.a. "jax"); I
>>haven't seen this one, and I don't have his email address handy, but
>>he hangs around c.l.f regularly...
>    Jax4th for Windows NT (or an older one for the Amiga) are
>downloadable from the RealTime Control & Forth Board (RCFB), number
>in .signature below \/\/\/\/

How about making it available at the simtel site?  K??d


Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:44:11 GMT  
 Wanted - public domain or shareware FORTH for 486

Quote:


>>        Jax4th for Windows NT (or an older one for the Amiga) are
>>downloadable from the RealTime Control & Forth Board (RCFB), number
>>in .signature below \/\/\/\/
>How about making it available at the simtel site?  K??d

        Wait until I clean up the docs. Another revision or so before
Jax4th goes bigtime :-)

                =jax=
--



#SYSOP RCFB (303) 278-0364      #  - Sokko to Nampo



Thu, 18 Jul 1996 14:12:19 GMT  
 Wanted - public domain or shareware FORTH for 486

: [...]
:       Wait until I clean up the docs. Another revision or so before
: Jax4th goes bigtime :-)

Jax, could you give any hints as to where Jax4th is heading?  Will this
eventually be a commercial offering with a GUI interface layer?  I'm
always on the lookout for a better tool...

Cheers,

Sr. Software Engineer         ICOM, Inc.               414-321-8000
*[Any opinions expressed are mine, not necessarily those of ICOM.]*



Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:44:21 GMT  
 Wanted - public domain or shareware FORTH for 486

Quote:



>: [...]
>:   Wait until I clean up the docs. Another revision or so before
>: Jax4th goes bigtime :-)
>Jax, could you give any hints as to where Jax4th is heading?  Will this
>eventually be a commercial offering with a GUI interface layer?  I'm
>always on the lookout for a better tool...

        I believe the code to allow full GUI programming is not really
much work. Cliff King and I keep talking about doing it, but we haven't
gotten a Round Tuit.

        I'm not sure where Jax4th is going. It depends on whether any
users want to work on it with me. One of my design goals was 200 hours
of work on the system, and it's in. The system is solid, but I haven't
quite finished the docs.

        So I want some engineering time by some exceptional programmers,
and I'll be glad to take it into the GUI realm. I know what needs to
be done, and pretty much how to do it. My fingers are tired, though :-)

Quote:
>Cheers,

>Sr. Software Engineer         ICOM, Inc.               414-321-8000
>*[Any opinions expressed are mine, not necessarily those of ICOM.]*

--



#SYSOP RCFB (303) 278-0364      #  - Sokko to Nampo


Sat, 20 Jul 1996 05:10:15 GMT  
 
 [ 9 post ] 

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