Is LISP dying? 
Author Message
 Is LISP dying?



[snipped]

Quote:
> I hear this in the Forth community (which is also "dying" with
> increasing traffic for 10 years now ;-), too, but IMHO, that's bull.

[snipped]

I'm a bit sad to see one of the most creative clf contributor
under the light of the most narrowly minded guy:

Quote:
> People don't want to think. They don't want to choose one of 23
> user-level implementations of OOP, or even decide to write their own
> one. They want to have a single standard OOP. Everybody will request
> that his feature need of the day is included in the single standard. And
> finally, they'll realize that they need to start over again, because
> this particular language converted to an unmaintainible mess. But
> they'll never come to the point to allow the user to add his feature of
> the day. That would be chaos. And that would be just like the dying
> languages, Lisp, etc. ...

If what you are alluding to is that "people" (whoever they are, since
no qualification is given) don't want to think about how implementing
the division each time they want to compute some ratio, then I guess
they are right. If those same people don't want to think about how
to implement an array each time they want...err! an array! I still do
think they are right. Not even speaking about anything more clever
having passed the darwinian selection: records, lists, nodes...

Maybe "People" want to think with _abstractions_ something that Forth
can deliver, but that Forthers have consistently failed to deliver over
the past 25 years. It doesn't matter whether we have the choice of
23 OOP system, if none of them is either good or documented enough to
attract the interest of a wide audience, which, in turn, would promote
more attention.

This attitude, "The Users Are Just Stupid Idiots" is so well encroached
these days, that I'm wondering if you're not more a Linux geek (Damn
the user!) than a Forther (Damn the abstraction!).

Too bad to see talents blinded by selfish, elitist considerations.

--

Early answers are...early answers
Wrong answers are...wrong answers



Mon, 31 Dec 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

+---------------
| Also, the GIMP uses Scheme as its native scripting language.
+---------------

Yeah, but didn't they use "SIOD" as their Scheme?
*Old* syntax, no where near R[45]RS...

-Rob

p.s. Don't get me wrong, SIOD is nice & small, and *fast*-starting.
But picking it for the scripting base of a new tool and then saying
"uses Scheme" makes about as much sense as picking (say) Lisp 1.6 and
then saying "Hey, what are you CL guys complaining about, we used Lisp"...

-----

Applied Networking              http://reality.sgi.com/rpw3/
Silicon Graphics, Inc.          Phone: 650-933-1673
1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy.         FAX: 650-933-0511
Mountain View, CA  94043        PP-ASEL-IA



Tue, 01 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?


Quote:
> I know only of a
> Forth native code compiler written in PROLOG

Please elaborate. Where can I get it?

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl                    Some things have to be seen to be believed

http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html



Tue, 01 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?


Quote:
> Counting versions is not the way to tell the health
> of
> a computer language. Count the number of textbooks on the
> shelves
> of bookstores intead. I conclude that Lisp and Scheme are still
> alive with about half to one third as many books as fortran,
> while Fortran has about one tenth as many books as the big guys
> like C, Java, Visual Basic and C++. Forth comes out at zero.

Your result may be biased by your selection of bookstores.  They'll
probably have to close MIT before LISP and Scheme books will vanish
from the Cambridge (MA) bookstores.

I was just at two bookstores near TU Wien.  I did not see LISP,
Scheme, or Forth books.  Interestingly, I did not even see a Prolog
book, although we have an obligatory Prolog course in our curriculum;
apparently the course notes are good enough.  I saw books for some not
so popular languages: Ada, Haskell, Icon, Miranda, ML, Modula-2,
Oberon.

Concerning the metric you use to evaluate the health of a language: I
think we have now enough experience to conclude that it is wrong.  You
whined about the lack of Forth books five years ago, but I see no
indication that Forth is any worse off than then, on the contrary,
other indicators are usually positive: clf traffic has grown, there
are fewer "Forth is dying" postings, implementations for new platforms
(e.g., PalmPilot, Lego Mindstorms) are demanded and supplied quickly,
participation at EuroForth is stable...

Quote:
>      When I meet people who tell me they want to learn all
> about computing, including programming, I want to say learn
> Forth. But I know that woun't work since they can't even go
> to the bookstore and buy a book about it.

And later you claim that Amazon.com is not a book store for this
purpose.  Why?  Sure, they cannot browse, but they have your
recommendation, and in the case of the Forth Programmer's Handbook
AFAIK they can even download an evaluation copy.

Moreover, there are several on-line Forth courses, so why would they
need to buy a book in a bookstore to learn Forth?

Using my metric of postings in comp.lang groups, here are the postings
present on news.tuwien.ac.at on July 11, 1997 and July 16, 1999.  You
will notice that a lot of newsgroups have vanished, that's because
this newsserver has dropped groups that nobody here reads:

1997    1999
        3       comp.lang.JavaScript
476     268     comp.lang.ada
206             comp.lang.apl
6       2       comp.lang.asm
786     581     comp.lang.asm.x86
78              comp.lang.asm370
117     144     comp.lang.awk
1               comp.lang.basic
447             comp.lang.basic.misc
114     646     comp.lang.basic.visual
282             comp.lang.basic.visual.3rdparty
691     760     comp.lang.basic.visual.database
3115    3429    comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
39              comp.lang.beta
2458    2471    comp.lang.c
2286    2518    comp.lang.c++
59              comp.lang.c++.leda
328     568     comp.lang.c++.moderated
51      63      comp.lang.c.moderated
968             comp.lang.clarion
731     655     comp.lang.clipper
224     625     comp.lang.clipper.visual-objects
32              comp.lang.clos
23              comp.lang.clu
485             comp.lang.cobol
5               comp.lang.cplu
5               comp.lang.crass
40              comp.lang.dylan
334     152     comp.lang.eiffel
6               comp.lang.for
233     470     comp.lang.forth
53              comp.lang.forth.mac
421     473     comp.lang.fortran
57      87      comp.lang.functional
31              comp.lang.hermes
31      28      comp.lang.icon
32              comp.lang.idl
122     183     comp.lang.idl-pvwave
309     252     comp.lang.java
815     1318    comp.lang.java.advocacy
12              comp.lang.java.announce
137     72      comp.lang.java.api
118     178     comp.lang.java.beans
        210     comp.lang.java.corba
        2       comp.lang.java.database
277     394     comp.lang.java.databases
        4       comp.lang.java.developer
391     1045    comp.lang.java.gui
772     1625    comp.lang.java.help
15              comp.lang.java.javascript
84      171     comp.lang.java.machine
208             comp.lang.java.misc
3440    3864    comp.lang.java.programmer
194     212     comp.lang.java.security
40              comp.lang.java.setup
223     295     comp.lang.java.softwaretools
259             comp.lang.java.tech
1732    2869    comp.lang.javascript
16              comp.lang.limbo
197     791     comp.lang.lisp
24              comp.lang.lisp.franz
46              comp.lang.lisp.mcl
25              comp.lang.lisp.x
130             comp.lang.logo
136     110     comp.lang.misc
14              comp.lang.ml
88              comp.lang.modula2
69              comp.lang.modula3
171             comp.lang.mumps
72              comp.lang.oberon
66      101     comp.lang.objective-c
55      26      comp.lang.Pascal
69              comp.lang.pascal.ansi-iso
664     297     comp.lang.pascal.borland
23      51      comp.lang.pascal.delphi
163             comp.lang.pascal.delphi.advocacy
21              comp.lang.pascal.delphi.announce
49      21      comp.lang.pascal.delphi.components
306     140     comp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.misc
222             comp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.usage
306     77      comp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.writing
1               comp.lang.pascal.delphi.database
888             comp.lang.pascal.delphi.databases
2061    864     comp.lang.pascal.delphi.misc
67              comp.lang.pascal.mac
221     111     comp.lang.pascal.misc
56      165     comp.lang.perl
7       1       comp.lang.perl.announce
1865    4223    comp.lang.perl.misc
        260     comp.lang.perl.moderated
256     411     comp.lang.perl.modules
115     232     comp.lang.perl.tk
41              comp.lang.pl1
28              comp.lang.pop
284     252     comp.lang.postscript
77              comp.lang.prograph
83      97      comp.lang.prolog
404     999     comp.lang.python
141     155     comp.lang.rexx
3               comp.lang.rexx.tso
4               comp.lang.rexx.vm
26      51      comp.lang.sather
160     178     comp.lang.scheme
32              comp.lang.scheme.c
26      12      comp.lang.scheme.scsh
491     430     comp.lang.Smalltalk
737     1235    comp.lang.tcl
23      7       comp.lang.tcl.announce
95              comp.lang.verilog
155     190     comp.lang.vhdl
2               comp.lang.visual
44      380     comp.lang.visual.basic
260     209     comp.lang.vrml

According to these numbers, both clf and cll traffic has grown a lot
in these two years, so I doubt that these languages are dying.

For more statistics, take a look at
http://metalab.unc.edu/usenet-i/hier-s/comp.lang.html.  E.g., it
claims that clf has 24000 readers, and that cll has 31000 readers.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl                    Some things have to be seen to be believed

http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html



Tue, 01 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

& According to these numbers, both clf and cll traffic has grown a lot
& in these two years, so I doubt that these languages are dying.

The true question is, is the growth rate of comp.lang.forth greater
than or less than the growth rate of Usenet traffic in general?  I
wouldn't say that more articles in, for example, talk.bizarre means
that the world is necessarily getting more bizarre.  I'd say rather
that more bizarre people are posting more.  What's the average
increase in posts in *lang* groups, and where does comp.lang.forth
stand on the curve?

--
U. Z. Puckett                              replace "sendnospam" with "puckett"



Tue, 01 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?
For what it's worth I ordered The Forth Programmer's Handbook directly from
Forth. Inc (www.forth.inc) on Wednesday and it's been sitting on my desk
since this morning. (Friday).  So it's available and it looks pretty good so
far.

Barry


Quote:


> > >... Counting versions is not the way to tell the health
> > >of a computer language. Count the number of textbooks on
> > >the shelves of bookstores intead. I conclude that Lisp
> > >and Scheme are still alive with about half to one third
> > >as many books as Fortran, while Fortran has about one tenth
> > >as many books as the big guys like C, Java, Visual Basic
> > >and C++. Forth comes out at zero.

> > >     When I meet people who tell me they want to learn all
> > >about computing, including programming, I want to say learn
> > >Forth. But I know that woun't work since they can't even go
> > >to the bookstore and buy a book about it. Well at least they
> > >can still get some nice books about Logo to get then
> > >started.

> > Is Amazon a bookstore?  Several Forth books there.

>       Amazon is not a bookstore. You can't drop in and
> browse. If you don't know what Forth is, or think that Forth
> isn't used anymore, you woun't notice a book about it by
> accident when you're looking for some other topic on
> programming. You can't just buy a book because you have it
> in your hot little hand and it looks interesting. You can't
> wrap it up and take it right home. People who don't even have an
> account to access amazon.com and the web are the easiest to
> influence to at least take a look at Forth. They have not
> learned the bad habits of other programming languages and can
> immediately appreciate the advantages of Forth.

>      I just looked for Forth books on amazon.com. Yes there
> are several listings. There is only one listed as being in
> print, and they say expect delivery within 4 to 6 weeks. There
> are also listings for books by Leo Brodie. When I clicked on
> "Thinking Forth" I got nothing but a system error. There are
> five separate listings for Leo Brodie's book -- "Starting
> Forth". That's reasonable since it is at least five times better
> than the average book on programming. But its out of print. Its
> available only by a special search. It will take them weeks to
> find it or tell you if its not available. They don't tell you to
> get it faster from the Forth Interest Group in California,
> http://www.fig.org/ (at least until their special printing runs
> out). Relying on amazon.com to sell Forth textbooks is not a
> good thing. It would be better to have a publisher promoting the
> book and getting it into bookstores.

>      Elizabeth Rather is much too shy and modest. She failed to
> mention her own book the "Forth Programmers' Handbook". So I'll
> tell everyone that it is the one Forth textbook that is in print
> and for sale at amazon.com. When I go to my local technical
> bookstores to see if it has finally arrived on the shelves (it
> hasn't), I find instead books on the equally neglected computer
> languages Lisp, Scheme and Logo. I think that Lisp and its
> relatives are much more lively than Forth since they still have
> recently revised textbooks for sale. Since Forth is still being
> used, I can deduce that Lisp is still being used, even tho I
> don't know where. But how long will Forth last without at least
> a few easily found textbooks?
> I wish old Forth programmers would become inspired by Lisp
> programmers to write textbooks so they would be able to train
> their replacements.

> --




Tue, 01 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:
> Is "Getting" a perl interface?  What's taking them so long?  The python
> interface has already been out for quite some time.  ;)

They seem to have problems getting the Gtk.pm package compiled and
installed properly (although I must say that the last version I tried
worked fine - so at least for me, the unstable version of Gtk has a Perl
interface).

--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/



Wed, 02 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:

> This attitude, "The Users Are Just Stupid Idiots" is so well encroached
> these days, that I'm wondering if you're not more a Linux geek (Damn
> the user!) than a Forther (Damn the abstraction!).

> Too bad to see talents blinded by selfish, elitist considerations.

This is really getting political. I think the elitism of my generation
is a counter-reaction to the egalitarism of the '68 generation. It was a
nice idea, but it didn't work. Men are not equal - they are not even
created equal (different genes, different upbringing, different
teaching, etc.). There are brights and stupids. Talents are rare, and
worse, they all limit themselves to one or a few areas. You can't talk
to all people using the same language.

There is nothing wrong with the users being "stupid idiots" (compared to
the gurus). They may have other talents, and then, we know that they
need just a lot of hand-holding. There aren't just as many natural born
kernel hackers out. It just works better if your model of the world
reflects reality instead of an ideal state.

In fact, the Linuxer's attitude stems from assuming that the users
aren't just stupid idiots. That's why Linux is "difficult" to install
and has that load of "cryptic" commands, and all the man pages are so
hard to read.

I'm not doing MINOS because I need a self-explaining, dumped down GUI to
program. I'm doing it because I know that other people need that. You
can only reach the masses if you have some of Dogbert's cynicm.

--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/



Wed, 02 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:



>> I know only of a
>> Forth native code compiler written in PROLOG

>Please elaborate. Where can I get it?

It is a roughly 10 years old work/study in Turbo Prolog for DOS-PCs.
Design idea was of an old friend of mine, realization by me, but never
published. Turbo Prolog for DOS had some peculiarities, compared with
nowadays Edinburgh (?) C&M standard Prolog. The compiler generated
opcodes for Intel 8086 processors on the fly as a side-effect while
backtracking from lolevel to hilevel words. I.e. new primitives were
compiled, already compiled primitives were called, hilivel words were
sequences of calls - typical subroutine threading.

The idea was that the compiler maintained a database of Prolog clauses
in memory, hilevel Forth words were lists of atoms or strings or
literals. The kernel was just a file containing the Prolog database to
be loaded together with the parsed Forth application source. To start
the compiler one "asked" the Prolog program to find the "solution" for
the topmost Forth word, typically called MAIN. By unification with its
internal knowledge in that database the Prolog inference mechanism
took care of backtracking and finding all and only all needed words
for the MAIN word or program. The result: minimum code without any
redundancies - very very small and fast.

No assembler, but hardcoded primitives. No Forth _system_ but a code
compiler that could understand Forth. Tom Zimmer's TCOM was much more
powerful in that respect, but our generated code was smaller.

If you`re still interested I could send you a copy of the sources -
provided the old dusty disks are still readable.

Andreas



Fri, 04 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:



> > Btw, there are a LOT of users of Lisp who do not buy its
> > products and prefer to use freeware; if you ask me, it is
> > that practice which hurts the community most of all.
> > People need to either contribute money (or public effort,
> > if they insist on using publicware) but they should not
> > expect to just "consume" without putting something back
> > and have the community survive.
> I hear this in the Forth community (which is also "dying"
> with increasing traffic for 10 years now ;-), too, but IMHO,
> that's bull.
> *If* freeware products are good enough (or better) than
> commercial offerings, commercial offerings aren't worth the
> price. And since one of the most popular C/C++ compiler also
> is freeware (GCC), I suppose C is dying rapidly, too, eh?
> Ok, I must admit that the community there works: they give
> back a lot of C code.

     The GNU C/C++ compiler is carefully designed to prove a
political opinion. Those who created it know that coprighting
software and keeping source code secret is an impediment to the
use of computers. They turned the practice of commercial
software companies on its head. After many years of work, these
people are finally getting their point across. Eventually we'll
see the only software worth using comes with unencumbered source
code.

     Progress is being made. Computers change things. Now we
have computers a thousand times more powerful than they used to
be and sitting on anybody's desk that wants one. A program that
used to tax the resources of IBM to write is now a term project
for a student.

    [snip]

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> IMHO the situation as it is - we see generations of
> inferiour languages hyped and passing away, replaced by
> another inferiour language, while we know what the "one
> real true thing" is - this situation has a cause. The
> masses aren't intelligent. Not above average - that's why
> they are called masses. They want authorities and follow
> rules (think of the "Life of Brian" scene of the masses in
> front of his house). That's how mass-market languages are
> created: they have rules (strong typing! static checks!),
> and they have restrictions (no run-time generated code!
> not extensible by the user - at least not in creative
> ways!!).
> People don't want to think. They don't want to choose one
> of 23 user-level implementations of OOP, or even decide to
> write their own one. They want to have a single standard
> OOP. Everybody will request that his feature need of the
> day is included in the single standard. And finally, they'll
> realize that they need to start over again, because this
> particular language converted to an unmaintainible mess. But
> they'll never come to the point to allow the user to add his
> feature of the day. That would be chaos. And that would be
> just like the dying languages, Lisp, etc. ...

     People who write programs do like to think and even solve
puzzles. Right now we keep changing things because we keep
thinking of new ways to compute. Extensible languages like Lisp
and Forth are particularly troublesome because they let you do
things differently easily. It would be nice to learn a few ways
of writing programs and just keep using them. But there is
always a new way to connect bits together waiting to be
discovered. And nobody has tried enough possibilities yet to
find the ones that have lasting value. There's one discovery
that I think is becoming clear. It is no longer desirable to
have programming languages and systems written by a business
corporation and covered by contracts, licenses, copyrights and
trade secrets. The best programs are going to be done with open
source by programmers communicating over the Internet. This is
simply doing things the way mathematicians do; after all
computing is part of mathematics. It no longer makes sense (if
it ever did in the first place) to write programs with the
business model of book publishing. On the other hand, it might
still make sense to write computer books with the business model
of book publishing. At least until the world wide web changes
the rules of publishing. And it will always make sense to hire
and pay experts who understand the computer programs a business
needs to use. How to know who these people are? Who wrote the
open source program that looks the best? Better yet, who wrote a
book or article telling you how to choose one of 23 user-level
implementations of OOP, and showed you how to write your own?

--



Sat, 05 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

    Michael>      Progress is being made. Computers change things. Now we
    Michael> have computers a thousand times more powerful than they used to
    Michael> be and sitting on anybody's desk that wants one. A program that
    Michael> used to tax the resources of IBM to write is now a term project
    Michael> for a student.

I suppose this is true if you mean "computing resources of IBM".  If
you mean programmers, then I don't see how this is possibly true
unless 99.9...9% of the term project has already been written for the
student.  I don't think capabilities of programmers have quite scaled
in the same proportion as the speed of computers.

Ray



Sat, 05 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?


   :This is really getting political. I think the elitism of my
   :generation is a counter-reaction to the egalitarism of the '68
   :generation. It was a nice idea, but it didn't work. Men are not
   :equal - they are not even created equal (different genes, different
   :upbringing, different teaching, etc.). There are brights and
   :stupids. Talents are rare, and worse, they all limit themselves to
   :one or a few areas. You can't talk to all people using the same
   :language.

I think perhaps you're out on your own on this one, Bernd. Whilst there
are a wide range of differences that prohibit any Marxian definition of
equality from holding - after all, that view was routed in the cotton
mills of the 1800s, where to a large extent people did droid jobs and
were interchangeable - and there are a range of intelligences in the
world, one thing that has persisted from the 60s is the concept of
people being of equal worth, provided they try hard. The last 20 years
have seen an expansion of the technology that allows people to utilise
their whole head-space, if you like; bounds such as work or upbringing
are no longer a bar to a fulfilling life.

And if I may be indelicate, fifty years ago the world had a *big*
disincentive to assigning different values to people put in front of it.
--
Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing



Sat, 05 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:


>     Michael>      Progress is being made. Computers change things. Now we
>     Michael> have computers a thousand times more powerful than they used to
>     Michael> be and sitting on anybody's desk that wants one. A program that
>     Michael> used to tax the resources of IBM to write is now a term project
>     Michael> for a student.

> I suppose this is true if you mean "computing resources of IBM".  If
> you mean programmers, then I don't see how this is possibly true
> unless 99.9...9% of the term project has already been written for the
> student.  I don't think capabilities of programmers have quite scaled
> in the same proportion as the speed of computers.

The speed and memory of computers has enabled professional teams or
programmers to design and implement languages like ANSI Common Lisp
that students can do their term projects in, instead of assembler
functions on OS/360 like IBM guys in the 60s had or whatever. If you
give one programmer with X capability a tool of Y power and a team of
20 programmers, each with the same X capability, a tool of Y/50 power,
the single programmer could come up with a better solution,
faster. The single programmer by using modern languages and tools is
leveraging the work of thousands of programmers and decades of design
and evolution and refinement. So it's not as though the solitary
programmer is really on their own.

Consider what writing a real-time display editor in the early 1970s
took. Nowadays with Java and Swing you can write one in 10 minutes
that supports rich text and embedded images in the document and can
save and restore files with this stuff in HTML format. (See the Java
tutorial at java.sun.com for an example of how easy this is to do.)

Christopher



Sat, 05 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:
> Consider what writing a real-time display editor in the early 1970s
> took. Nowadays with Java and Swing you can write one in 10 minutes
> that supports rich text and embedded images in the document and can
> save and restore files with this stuff in HTML format. (See the Java
> tutorial at java.sun.com for an example of how easy this is to do.)

And it has the dubious property of breaking when Java's marketing
people decide they want some other half-baked "feature" to compete
with VB.  Or, when Sun decides to sell Java to somebody who really
breaks it.

Would I trust Lisp to be nominally stable?  Yes- it has the potential
to be enhanced in a technically honest and nominally open manner.
That possibility doesn't exist with Java.  Sun MIGHT make good
technical decisions on its enhancement this month- but they aren't
accountable and are only open to the point their PHBs want to be.

Thats not to say Java sucks- I can't say, BUT I can say I'd rather use
a language based (however erratically) on an open standard.  To
paraphrase someone's quote, "..sucky open standards beat great closed
standards every time".

Gregm



Sat, 05 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

        ...

Quote:
> Would I trust Lisp to be nominally stable?  Yes- it has the potential
> to be enhanced in a technically honest and nominally open manner.
> That possibility doesn't exist with Java.  Sun MIGHT make good
> technical decisions on its enhancement this month- but they aren't
> accountable and are only open to the point their PHBs want to be.

> Thats not to say Java sucks- I can't say, BUT I can say I'd rather use
> a language based (however erratically) on an open standard.  To
> paraphrase someone's quote, "..sucky open standards beat great closed
> standards every time".

So, what do you (plural) think?  Is Java going to stay "relatively"
"open" or not?

What part of the Java library do you think are going to change without
"public consent"?

Just curious to see what reaction I stir. :)

Cheers

--
Marco Antoniotti ===========================================
PARADES, Via San Pantaleo 66, I-00186 Rome, ITALY
tel. +39 - 06 68 10 03 17, fax. +39 - 06 68 80 79 26
http://www.parades.rm.cnr.it/~marcoxa



Sun, 06 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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