Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ] 
Author Message
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]

To all,

There has been much discussion in the OFF TOPIC messages about Christians, Jews
and Atheists. The only definitions to come to hand have been about Jews.

I will paraphrase the comments that the author of the Book "The GOD Chasers",
Tommy Tenney said at a set of meetings in Melbourne Australia some time ago.

"When you want to speak about Christians, you want to have it well defined. Too
many people have their own ideas as to what a Christian means. The original word
came about to describe the disciples of the man Jesus Christ (the son of GOD)."

Discipleship means choosing to follow and following in the footsteps of someone
else, in this case Jesus (who incidentally WAS a Jew). Discipleship COSTS and in
this case can (and for many people does) cost you your life. We of the Western
World have no real idea about the cost of discipleship - we are relatively
free, in many cases, to live how we like (whether or not that life style is
ultimately GOOD or BAD).

These days I'm very reticent about calling myself a Christian (because of the
many different views as to what a "Christian" is) and rather would call
myself a disciple of Jesus Christ, Son of the Most High Living GOD. I'm not
a good man, because there is only one who is good, that is GOD.

I recognize that I am a Sinner (a word not liked at all these days) and one
who has been forgiven because I accept the supreme sacrifice paid for my
life - the death suffered by my King, Lord and GOD at the hands of the
Roman soldiers ~2000 years ago. I amy stumble and fall, and I have to accept
responsibility for my actions, but I don't have stay down in the cesspool,
because my GOD loves me and wants me and wants to know me intimately. My
biggest problem is "Do I want to know Him intimately and all that goes
with it?"

Abuses have been done by many people for many reasons and many other things
have been blamed for the abuses. But what it boils down to is that we
(every man, woman and child on the planet) wants to do what they want - this
will always lead to conflicts. Whether they have any power to do what they
want is a moot point.

--
Bruce Rennie ( from God's Own Country Downunder )
Disciple of Jesus Christ in Training

Song of Solomon ( Song of Songs ) - The greatest Love Story Ever
and a story for our times.

Be a GOD Chaser.



Wed, 30 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]

Quote:
> It would take a pretty dumb national leader to approve of
> assassination as a tool of international politics; that leader
> immediately gets a big sign painted on their back labelled "Go ahead -
> assassinate me!"

> The connection between this and:
> a) Christianity, and
> b) Death penalties,
> is exceedingly tenuous.

No doubt about that, but we almost made a full turn and are now heading
again for the not so distant vicinity of the original topic: Lisp *dying*
;-)

Benjamin

--
As an anti-spam measure I have scrambled my email address here.
Remove "nospam-" and ROT13 to obtain my email address in clear text.



Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]
Thank you Julian and Jerry. I learned something I didn't know
about being a Jew and it helps me fits several pieces of my
knowledge puzzle together.

Bruce


Quote:

> > Judaism is not primarily a belief system (although it has
elements
> > thereof grafted on) but a tribal/ethnic identification based
on
> > language, custom, rules and ancestry. Conversion to Judaism
is
> > not so much subscription to a credo as it is adoption into a
tribe.

> > Despite there being groups like Jews for Jesus, and despite
the
> > fact that the original followers (ante-Paul) of Jesus were
primarily Jews,
> > the core beliefs of Judaism are primarily concerned with
actions and
> > this world, in contrast to Christianity (modern, that is)
whose core
> > involves faith.

> > One elegant way it has been put is that a Jewish athiest
disbelieves
> > in an entirely different sort of diety than an athiest of
Christian or
> > pagan upbringing.

> As a Jewish atheist, I can certify that at least one exists.
Julian has
> it correctly; being a member of that tribe isn't optional.
Even if I
> wanted it otherwise, there are those who would not accept
that, and even
> today, there are far too many who would like to think of me as
raw
> material for a lampshade.

> Julian is also correct about practice's being considered more
important
> than faith. A rabbi friend tried for years to get me to attend
services
> regularly, with no hint that I ought to change my beliefs.
"What matters
> to God is what you do, not what you believe." We remained
friends
> despite my disinterest. Many of my charitable contributions
are to
> Jewish causes, including the local synagogue. It is an
important local
> cultural center; I want it to be there, even while having
little
> personal contact and no philosophical affinity at all.

> When my Jewish acquaintances ask about religion, I tell than I
am an
> atheist; to Christians, I say I am a Jew. To say otherwise
would seem to
> many (and to me!) to be hiding something.

> Jerry



Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]

Quote:
> I Kings Ch. 7 verse 23

> In King James translation: "And he made molten sea, ten cubits from the one
> brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits:
> and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."

> From which it is obvious that pi must be three.

Errm, sorry, I'm not even a Jew or Christian, but in non-scientific
usage "round all about", or even "circular", does not necessarily imply
a circle in the strict geometric sense. There is context.


Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]

Quote:

>>>One elegant way it has been put is that a Jewish athiest disbelieves
>>>in an entirely different sort of diety than an athiest of Christian or
>>>pagan upbringing.

>>        Is it also that case that a Forth atheist disbelieves in an
>>entirely different sort of programming paradigm than a C++ atheist?

>Does Forth have void or a false value 0 surrounded by millions
>and millions of true values (all of them boiling down to the 1 true
>faith)?

        Aha, now you are getting down to sectarian conflicts.

17. ANS Forth follows Forth-83 in having One True TRUE and One True
FALSE, *but* in having thousands, and in larger systems millions, of
true values.

18. Other systems have had a TRUE values which was not the One True
TRRUE value, in that `` value TRUE AND '' was not guaranteed to be
``value'', and `` value TRUE OR '' was not guaranteed to be TRUE.

Here ends the reading from 2nd Booles.

(
----------
Virtually,

Bruce McFarling, Newcastle,

)



Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]
Erik Naggum wrote a surprisingly mild reply:

Quote:

> | One must first wonder what is wrong with the system that produces these
> | kinds of people that commit the crimes.

>   what's wrong is thinking that political systems produce any kind of
>   people.  "societies don't produce people.  people produce people."

Of course you are right, but the society has a profound impact on the people
that produce people; we are social animals. By system I meant the whole
thing: family, education, work, etc... not a political system, which is only a
part of it.

Quote:
>   requiring people to compete  with others in terms of being the most needy
> is a really, truly horrible

Who ever said that welfare should be unconditional ? There is a lot of work to
do and I don't see a reason why people who are on welfare couldn't do a little
work for their income. I don't like freeriders any more than you do, but
they're not the reason why we shouldn't help people that are temporarily in a
bad situation. I'm not qualified to make suggestions for these systems, but I
firmly believe that there are better alternatives than the ones used now.

One other minor factor is that at least in the IT business people have to work
overtime and everything is very much efficiency oriented; people burn out and
sometimes just snap. I think there was such a case in the US just a few days
ago. Everything is about competition and therefore extremely stressful. People
don't give a fsck about working hours when they have to compete with each
other in productivity.

Quote:
>   my take on it is that people who are allowed to think that they can
>   _demand_ that others keep them alive and well start to think they are
>   _deprived_ of it if others don't actually keep them alive and well, and
>   such attitudes may well lead to criminal behavior as it already ignores
>   the rights and needs of those who are required to care for them with
>   nothing tangible in return, not even a thank-you.

Criminal behaviour is made up of many factors. There are certain structures in
communities that are more likely to "produce" people with criminal tendencies.
These should be changed.  I would guess that upbringing is the biggest. In
some systems people who are rich to begin with have the chances and the poor
don't or at least are in a considerably worse situation to begin with.
Education is probably one of the deciding factors and it's is usually tied to
wealth. In the nordic countries the educational system considers most people
equal to begin with and that is one of the biggest reasons I like living here.
At least everyone has an almost equal chance.

Timo



Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]

Quote:


> (snip)

> > Show me a contradiction.

> My favorite is the following:

> I Kings Ch. 7 verse 23

> In King James translation: "And he made molten sea, ten cubits from the one
> brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits:
> and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."

> From which it is obvious that pi must be three.

>   -LenZ-

I don't see a problem/contradiction. The values given were whole numbers and a
search ( using  Online Bible v7.06  c Timathserah Inc.   www.OnlinBible.org)
for
((half | third | quarter | tenth) AND (cubit | cubits))
indicated usage only for half cubit(s). All those were for lengths less than 3
cubits.


Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]

Quote:

>As to whether Lisp will live, hell yes.  It's like humans; we're
>waiting for some big cataclysm to kill ourselves off with, but it'll
>never happen.  Humanity will survive forever, and computer languages
>will survive until they're long past irrelevancy.  BASIC is surviving.
>Doesn't that say EVERYthing?  _BASIC_ IS SURVIVING!  Should I shout it
>again?  It's just too far beyond purpose and reason.  Lisp is a good,
>intelligent language.  It might change, but for the better, just as C
>is changing.  Whether it becomes popular or not, why should anyone
>care?  It's there now.  Isn't the point to enjoy the language?

Lisp (or Scheme) deserves to survive. It is one of the language
*everybody* who gets an education in computer sciences, should learn.
Basic, C, Pascal, Modula, Algol, fortran... these are basically all the
same language. Lisp is different. FORTH is different. Smalltalk is
different. When comparing to these, you start to see how similar the
other languages really are. Only when learning the alternatives, you see
how narrow your view on computing really was.

        Bart.



Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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