Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ] 
Author Message
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]

Quote:

> Nah.  First offence, finger.  Second offence, hand.  Third offence, head.
> The road to civilization is not tolerating criminal behavior.

This is the road to totalitarianism.

"Thou shalt not kill"

It amazes me how so many christian people in the states are pro death penalty
even though it's against one of the most basic principles of christian ethics.

One must first wonder what is wrong with the system that produces these kinds of
people that commit the crimes. Less taxes, no more money to social security...
sound familiar ? Let's not help the people that aren't well off,  it's our money.
No wonder you have social problems. The road to civilization is to find and root
out the reasons for the antisocial behaviour, stopping it when the crime has
happened is too late. Do you seriously think that the death penalty is civilized
? Using lethal injections doesn't make it any more humane. Is the system that
kills the very people it has grown to be criminals more civilized than the
criminals themselves ? How humane is the community that doesn't care for all it's
members ? Of course there will always be crime, but more could be done at the
root. Making the punishments harder does not work in the long run, when things
are bad enough people won't care about the law no matter how hard it is.

What does this have to do with c.l.l and c.l.f ?

Timo

ps. I'm not against off topic discussion, it's easy enough to kill the thread in
the newsreader when it gets off topic.



Tue, 29 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]

Quote:


>> Nah.  First offence, finger.  Second offence, hand.  Third offence, head.
>> The road to civilization is not tolerating criminal behavior.

>This is the road to totalitarianism.

>"Thou shalt not kill"

>It amazes me how so many christian people in the states are pro death penalty
>even though it's against one of the most basic principles of christian ethics.

There's also the minor problem of error. Consider, for example, that something
like half the people on death row in the state of Illinois this decade have been
released because evidence was found  proving that they were innocent. That's
not exactly what you would call getting off on a technicality.


Tue, 29 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]
this is clearly a no-win thread, but i find myself sucked in nonetheless...

background: i was raised a non-practicing hindu (too much science at an
early age rendered me agnostic for my first two decades) but have "come
around" a bit in my twenties.  i'm married to a protestant woman and
attend church and {*filter*} sunday school regularly with her.  i go to learn
more about her faith, to inform my faith, and mostly because the pastor
and sunday school teachers strike me as uncommonly wise people.

Quote:

>It is certainly true that as a Christian, I am under much greater temptation to
>sin
>than non Christians, since Satan will spend all of his time trying to get me
>to sin.  He has no reason to waste excess time on non-believers, since they
>are already largely under his control.

you may wish to entertain the thought that perhaps everything you believe
is true and will lead you to a maximal life, but that there are other
paths to god (or the gods) that differ from your's, equally valid though
in no way diminishing your faith.

(as a side note, it always surprises me to learn what an active role
some christians believe the devil plays in their everyday lives, sort
of the peanut butter to the jellyish belief of some athletes that god
affects the outcomes of their competitions.)

Quote:
>God certainly is omnipotent.  He can "do" anything that is consistent with
>His character as revealed in the Bible.

if god is omnipotent, then in what sense is god shackled by the bible,
assuming it can be unambiguously interpreted?  (this is a pedantic question,
i know.)

Quote:
>Let me ask you a question.  If you were God, and as a non Christian,
>you might as well be.

the level of "godliness" in my friends and family, to the degree i can
perceive such a quality, does not appear to be a function of their
particular religion -- christianity, islam, judaism, hinduism, none-at-
all, etc.

Quote:
>Just my thoughts,

>Tom Zimmer

sashank


Tue, 29 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]


Quote:

> A system like that was actually prctised by the Scythians an ancient
> nomadic group of people populating the steppes of central Asia. If someone
> was accused of treason a soothsayer was consulted and if the soothsayer
> decided he was guilty and someone disputed then other (I think five)
> soothsayers were consulted. If they did not confirm then the first
> soothsayer was killed.

> Don't know how successful the scheme was, though.

        You tend to use up a lot of soothsayers that way, which is a strong
argument in its favor.

--

-GJC



Tue, 29 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]

Quote:


> >I can only assume that sanctimony creates blindness which the
> >blind don't always like.

>    No, it's just social reference groups.  People who have Bible
> drummed into them still keep forgetting that the Good Samaritan was
> someone of the `wrong' religious persuasion.

> (
> ----------
> Virtually,

> Bruce McFarling, Newcastle,

> )

The point of the Good Samaritan story was that _even_ a Samaritan could
be a good man. The Levites (or whoever) who did not help the injured man
were not being made out to be bad men either--they were simply pious
individuals who could not at that time incur the impurity of being
in the presence of a corpse (if the injured man pegged out). In their
value system, it was their obligation not to stop. Of course the parable
has subsequently been cited primarily to denigrate the Pharisaic (i.e.
pietist) branch of Judaism of that time.

BTW: Samaritans were looked down upon because they were foreigners who
converted to Judaism, hence interlopers & strangers from another tribe.

--
Julian V. Noble

"Elegance is for tailors!"    -- Ludwig Boltzmann



Tue, 29 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]

Quote:
"Bruce Hoyt"  writes:



> > Just as there are those who assume that Christianity implies
> goodness,
> > there are some who assume that goodness implies Christianity.
> I once
> > stopped to help a stranded car that turned out to be driven by
> a nun.
> > The passengers were three other nuns and a priest. When I got
> them
> > going, the driver thanked me and said I was a good Christian.
> I assured
> > her that I acceped that as a complement, but that her criteria
> needed
> > revising: I am Jewish. (I didn't have the heart to tell her
> also that
> > I'm an atheist.) I had to tell her again that I wasn't
> insulted, and
> > appologized for having flustered her. She curtsied and fled.
> As I put my
> > tools away, the priest came to me and thanked me again, saying
> that I
> > had given them all much more than roadside help. These weren't
> stupid
> > people; I can only assume that sanctimony creates blindness
> which the
> > blind don't always like.

> Is it a contradiction to be Jewish and Christian? You seem to
> imply that. But then how can one be Jewish and an atheist?

> If being Christian means holding to a certain set of beliefs (as
> it has traditionally been defined), and if being Jewish means
> holding to another (and to some extent contradictory) set of
> beliefs, then one cannot be a Christian and at the same time
> Jewish. But one cannot be Jewish and an atheist either.

> But if being Jewish means being descended from Jewish forebears
> (perhaps going as far back as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) then one
> certainly can be a Jewish Christian. And one can also be a
> Jewish atheist.

> Bruce

Judaism is not primarily a belief system (although it has elements
thereof grafted on) but a tribal/ethnic identification based on
language, custom, rules and ancestry. Conversion to Judaism is
not so much subscription to a credo as it is adoption into a tribe.

Despite there being groups like Jews for Jesus, and despite the
fact that the original followers (ante-Paul) of Jesus were primarily Jews,
the core beliefs of Judaism are primarily concerned with actions and
this world, in contrast to Christianity (modern, that is) whose core
involves faith.

One elegant way it has been put is that a Jewish athiest disbelieves
in an entirely different sort of diety than an athiest of Christian or
pagan upbringing.

--
Julian V. Noble

"Elegance is for tailors!"    -- Ludwig Boltzmann



Tue, 29 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]

Quote:



> Yeesh.  This junk is SO far off topic it's sick.  Can it, okay?  This can
> be carried out PERFECTLY well on the appropriate NGs (I wouldn't mind if
> this topic wasn't causing such a flamewar).

> --
> -William "Billy" Tanksley

Right on! The only religious topics allowed here concern our mutual one
(i.e. the Forth).

--
Julian V. Noble

"Elegance is for tailors!"    -- Ludwig Boltzmann



Tue, 29 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Death penalty for LISP ? [ was: Re: Is LISP dying? ]

writes:

Quote:

> > > Locking someone up for life is a waste of taxpayer money,

> > So is locking up someone for stealing something. Far cheaper to chop of the
> > hand that did the stealing. I'm a taxpayer too, and I'm proud to be able to
> > pay for a bit of civilization.

> Nah.  First offence, finger.  Second offence, hand.  Third offence, head.
> The road to civilization is not tolerating criminal behavior.

No, the road to civilization is (in part) having an honest, competent
court system, lack of which makes the death penalty too big a threat
to non-criminals.  None of which has anything to do with Lisp or Forth.

Followups to anywhere but here.

--
Tom Breton, http://world.std.com/~tob
Ugh-free Spelling (no "gh") http://world.std.com/~tob/ugh-free.html



Tue, 29 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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