Is LISP dying? 
Author Message
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:


> >ROT13 is also known as "Caesar's cipher", as Gaius Julius Caesar is
> >said to have used it ca. 58 B.C. to encrypt messages to his Roman
> >troops.

> Can't be. The Roman's didn't have the same alphabet as we have now.
> There was no "k" nor "w"; and "v" and "u" were one letter. ;-)

>    Bart.

Actually I have read somewhere that Caesar used a "scytale" which involves
wrapping a long strip of paper or parchment spirally around a dowel of
given diameter. Properly done the wrapping is unique. Then you write on the
paper, unwrap the strip, and presto! unreadable (at least to illiterates
who do not possess a stick of the same diameter...).

And speaking of the wisdom of the ancients, have you heard of the method
Aristotle (Alexander's teacher) devised to help his pupil coordinate
simultaneous attacks by separated forces? He invented a dye that changed
color after a certain time. One dipped a cloth in it, tore it into as
many pieces as needed and gave them to the commanders. When the scraps
changed color, they all attacked.

That, of course, is why the Macedonian army was sometimes called
"Alexander's Rag-Time Band".

--
Julian V. Noble

"Elegance is for tailors!"    -- Ludwig Boltzmann



Sun, 27 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:



> > >ROT13 is also known as "Caesar's cipher", as Gaius Julius Caesar is
> > >said to have used it ca. 58 B.C. to encrypt messages to his Roman
> > >troops.

> > Can't be. The Roman's didn't have the same alphabet as we have now.
> > There was no "k" nor "w"; and "v" and "u" were one letter. ;-)

> >       Bart.

> Actually I have read somewhere that Caesar used a "scytale" which involves
> wrapping a long strip of paper or parchment spirally around a dowel of
> given diameter. Properly done the wrapping is unique. Then you write on the
> paper, unwrap the strip, and presto! unreadable (at least to illiterates
> who do not possess a stick of the same diameter...).

> And speaking of the wisdom of the ancients, have you heard of the method
> Aristotle (Alexander's teacher) devised to help his pupil coordinate
> simultaneous attacks by separated forces? He invented a dye that changed
> color after a certain time. One dipped a cloth in it, tore it into as
> many pieces as needed and gave them to the commanders. When the scraps
> changed color, they all attacked.

> That, of course, is why the Macedonian army was sometimes called
> "Alexander's Rag-Time Band".

> --
> Julian V. Noble

> "Elegance is for tailors!"      -- Ludwig Boltzmann

That is why we also hear reference to "rag tag" armies. The pieces of
cloth were called rag tags, of course.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art       |      Let's talk about what
of making what you want      |      you need; you may see
from things you can get.     |      how to do without it.
---------------------------------------------------------



Sun, 27 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:

> "Gary Chanson"  writes:

>         [ deleted ]

> > This part I definitely agree with.  My version of WITHIN has always
> > been non-standard because it includes both end points.  I've never seen the
> > need for either the exclusive or unsymmetrical versions.  If I'm using
> > unsigned numbers, I use UWITHIN.

> > --

> > -GJC

> I would like to second that. I also much prefer the version that indicates

>         L <= n <= U

> to the version (ANS) that gives true if

>         L <= n < U .

> I understand the rationale for the ANS way, but I think Gary is right
> for suggesting UWITHIN for unsigned integers. A better, clearer
> solution.

> --
> Julian V. Noble

> "Elegance is for tailors!"      -- Ludwig Boltzmann

But a slower one. Once, that mattered for most, and now, it still
matters for some. What I ask, in all our interests, is that when you
change the function, also change the name. Keeping the name while making
the word do "what it should have done all along", is fragmenting and
destructive.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art       |      Let's talk about what
of making what you want      |      you need; you may see
from things you can get.     |      how to do without it.
---------------------------------------------------------



Sun, 27 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:



> > Yeah, shocking. These people come and take the
> > Indians' land, and the Indians have the *temerity*
> > to object and even to *gasp* fight the people who
> > invaded their country. Disgraceful!

> Well what do you expect from savages?  Good thing god-fearing
> Christians came in to show them the way!  We all know that anything
> drenched in Christianity automatically is blessed with love and
> compassion.

> (whoops-- off topic-- better recover...)

 You're confusing Christians with people who pick (an arbitrary) religion
to
justify their evil ways. It is true that historically some "Christians"
have used
their "religion" to justify acts which are contrary to the teachings of
the Bible,
just as some "Muslims" use their religion to justify acts which are
contrary
to the teachings of the Koran. To imply that Christianity (or any faith)
is
bad just because some people who claim to follow it are bad is stupid. Or

haven't you heard that it is wrong to stereotype? I bet you'd be pissed
off
if someone stereotyped you...

With best wishes,
Ken



Sun, 27 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

-- snip --

Quote:
> Never mind. Imagine they had worded it

> "All men and women are created equal"

> If that was true this planet would be quite a boring place, wouldn't it ?

Yes it would have been. If they'd been more concerned about political
correctness than breaking away from England, then today the entire
planet Earth could just be one big Glorious English colony, complete
with haughty accents. Hooligans and others who believed in liberty (as
opposed to freedom) could be drawn, quartered, and fed to pigs.
Right?
It;s really easy to second-guess people, isn't it...

Ken



Sun, 27 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:

> Perhaps it is convenient for Americans to call their European brothers for
> help when shouldering the burden of their not so heroic parts of history.

 Actually, our English, French, and Spanish "brothers" seemed to have done
everything they could to make us their servants (err.. respective colonies).
After (and even before) the US became a "super power," our European
"brothers" keep getting into these incredibly stupid wars and then expecting
the US to bail them out - all the while {*filter*}ing about how the US is meddling
where it doesn't belong, blaming liberties enjoyed by US citizens for "the
proliferation of guns," etc...

Quote:

> Also, I would like to remind you that the notation "English (Scotts,
> Welsh)" may have gotten you into trouble in the UK as it could be

 If you want to really{*filter*}someone off, tell a Dane that they are really
Scandanavian, the same as any German is a Scandanavian..


Sun, 27 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:
>  Actually, our English, French, and Spanish "brothers" seemed to have done
> everything they could to make us their servants (err.. respective colonies).

If you are against colonising other people's land, why did you stay then ?

Quote:
> our European "brothers" keep getting into these incredibly stupid wars

:-) I like that bit

However, don't forget that it was the US who financed the troublemaker,
who already had a track record of starting two of these incredibly stupid
wars. ;-)

That wasn't very smart either, was it ?

That troublemaker's house bank of then is now the world's richest in
liquid assets, and these days they keep buying US banks.

--
As an anti-spam measure I have scrambled my email address here.
Remove "nospam-" and ROT13 to obtain my email address in clear text.



Mon, 28 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:

>> Also, I would like to remind you that the notation "English (Scotts,
>> Welsh)" may have gotten you into trouble in the UK as it could be

> If you want to really{*filter*}someone off, tell a Dane that they are really
>Scandanavian, the same as any German is a Scandanavian..

Aren't danes scandinavian? I've never heard any of them get
upset by having their country "grouped" as a scandinavian country?

The germans to my knowledge are not scandinavian though. Am I missing
some subtle point here?

--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Stig Erik Sandoe    Institute of Informatics, University of Bergen



Mon, 28 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:

>>> Also, I would like to remind you that the notation "English (Scotts,
>>> Welsh)" may have gotten you into trouble in the UK as it could be

>> If you want to really{*filter*}someone off, tell a Dane that they are really
>> Scandanavian, the same as any German is a Scandanavian..
> Aren't danes scandinavian? I've never heard any of them get
> upset by having their country "grouped" as a scandinavian country?

I am not sure, you probably meet more Scandinavians than I (although see
below). I have been told that Scandinavia 'proper' is only Norway, Sweden
being called after the Scandes? Scandia? mountain range between the two
countries. But the more common use includes Finland, Denmark, and sometimes
Iceland and F?r?yene (Faeroe Islands) (but what about Svalbard?)

Quote:
> The germans to my knowledge are not scandinavian though.

No, that's right, it looked like it was meant in jest. However, I have been
campaigning to get Holland (aka The Netherlands (yes, I'll be flamed for
this, it's like the England/GB distinction)) accepted as belonging to
Scandinavia, or to be considered a 'Nordic' country: culturally, socially and
economically Holland is really quite similar to the other Scandinavian
countries (if a bit small in size, and if a bit large in population). So far,
this campaign hasn't borne fruit.  Ah well,

                                                                      Philip
--
DISARRAY ('dis-u-Rae) n. Data structure that looks like an array, but isn't.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

+44 (0)1223 49 4639                 | Wellcome Trust Genome Campus, Hinxton
+44 (0)1223 49 4468 (fax)           | Cambridgeshire CB10 1SD,  GREAT BRITAIN
PGP fingerprint: E1 03 BF 80 94 61 B6 FC  50 3D 1F 64 40 75 FB 53



Mon, 28 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:
>>> If you want to really{*filter*}someone off, tell a Dane that they are really
>>> Scandanavian, the same as any German is a Scandanavian..

>> Aren't danes scandinavian? I've never heard any of them get
>> upset by having their country "grouped" as a scandinavian country?

>I am not sure, you probably meet more Scandinavians than I (although see
>below). I have been told that Scandinavia 'proper' is only Norway, Sweden
>being called after the Scandes? Scandia? mountain range between the two
>countries. But the more common use includes Finland, Denmark, and sometimes
>Iceland and F?r?yene (Faeroe Islands) (but what about Svalbard?)

If I am not totally wrong and/or been taught the wrong things in school,
the scandinavian countries are Norway, Sweden and Denmark. It is often
confused with the term 'Nordic countries' which includes Finland, Iceland and
F?r?yene. The finns however do not share the same language background as
the other nations, despite swedish attempts to teach them..

Svalbard is a special area which is part of the Norwegian state,
but I think the russians have some special arrangement about Svalbard as they
have settlements there. Needless to say it was quite the place during the
cold war..

Quote:
>> The germans to my knowledge are not scandinavian though.

>No, that's right, it looked like it was meant in jest. However, I have been
>campaigning to get Holland (aka The Netherlands (yes, I'll be flamed for
>this, it's like the England/GB distinction)) accepted as belonging to
>Scandinavia, or to be considered a 'Nordic' country: culturally, socially and
>economically Holland is really quite similar to the other Scandinavian
>countries (if a bit small in size, and if a bit large in population). So far,
>this campaign hasn't borne fruit.  Ah well,

I am quite fond of Holland myself but to classify it as a nordic country
would probably be wrong.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Stig Erik Sandoe    Institute of Informatics, University of Bergen



Mon, 28 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?


Quote:


> >> Also, I would like to remind you that the notation "English (Scotts,
> >> Welsh)" may have gotten you into trouble in the UK as it could be

> > If you want to really{*filter*}someone off, tell a Dane that they are really
> >Scandanavian, the same as any German is a Scandanavian..

> Aren't danes scandinavian? I've never heard any of them get
> upset by having their country "grouped" as a scandinavian country?

I've never heard anyone claim that they weren't Scandinavian. Their language
is certainly Scandinavian (it's my understanding that if you know any one of
Norwegian, Swedish or Danish, you can get along in the other two with only
minor difficulty), and their history is closely intertwined with that of
Norway and Sweden.

Quote:
> The germans to my knowledge are not scandinavian though. Am I missing
> some subtle point here?

I think that's a joke. IIRC, there's been hard feelings among many Danes
against the Germans for many years. The Prussian seizure of Schleswig (?)
and Holstein from Denmark in 1866 (?) was a real sore point, I think.

Larry



Mon, 28 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?


Quote:
>If I am not totally wrong and/or been taught the wrong things in school,
>the scandinavian countries are Norway, Sweden and Denmark. It is often
>confused with the term 'Nordic countries' which includes Finland, Iceland and
>F?r?yene. The finns however do not share the same language background as
>the other nations, despite swedish attempts to teach them..

Well, it's interesting to see that crop up here, it's been a main
course on soc.culture.nordic some years ago. I've included a verbatim
quote from the soc.culture.nordic FAQ below. See:

  http://www.*-*-*.com/

for the complete FAQ, which contains more than you ever wanted to know
about the history and culture of the north.

Quote:
>I am quite fond of Holland myself but to classify it as a Nordic country
>would probably be wrong.

There are many similarities, but for the wrong reasons. So no, they do
emphatically not belong with the "Nordic countries," if that term is
to maintain any useful meaning.

And to the original poster, no doubt trying to stir some animosity,
between us Nordic brethren, it really won't work. The aforementioned
FAQ puts it nicely as:

 "The Nordic countries are, in spite of everything, like a family;
  not a One Big Happy Family of Nations, no, just any old family with
  its small quarrels and fights. They just tend to grow out of
  proportion when we have no real problems or crises to fight about.
  There are no great feelings of hatred between the different
  nationalities, few historical traumas, our prejudices about each
  other are pretty harmless, and so forth. We might have some Big
  Brother or Little Brother complexes -- at least we like to accuse
  each other of suffering from them -- but mostly we just like to make
  some noise and get some attention."

Since this discussion really doesn't belong here, I'll confine my
remarks to this posting.

------------------------------------------------------------------
2.1.3 What is "Scandinavia"?

The word "Scandinavia" presents a bit more difficulty. In Nordic
languages, the meaning is quite clear:

   Skandinavien:
   Sweden, Denmark, Norway (and sometimes Iceland)
   -- the ancient lands of the Nor{*filter*}.

The Scandinavian peninsula, on the other hand, is usually simply
understood as comprising Norway and Sweden, despite the unclear border
to the Kola peninsula. The northernmost part of Finland is of course
also situated on the Scandinavian peninsula.

But in English, alas, there seems to be no standard usage. This is
mainly due to the fact that English lacks a simple and clear term for
the five countries, and the word "Scandinavia" tends to be used for
that purpose instead. The term "Nordic countries", in its current
definition, is a rather recent invention, its meaning is still a bit
obscure especially to non-Europeans, it's awkward to use and to some
people it carries unpleasant connotations of the Aryan "Nordic
race". Therefore, you will find that it's quite common to define the
word "Scandinavia" in English like this:

   [Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English]
   SCANDINAVIAN
   1. of the countries Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland
      in northern Europe, or their people or languages.

On the other hand, it is not uncommon to use the word "Scandinavia" in
its more limited definition. An example:

   [The Concise Oxford Dictionary]
   SCANDINAVIAN
   1. a native or inhabitant of Scandinavia
      (Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Iceland).

And some encyclopaedias put it like this:

   [The Random House Encyclopaedia]
   SCANDINAVIA
   1. region of northern Europe consisting of
      the kingdoms of Sweden, Norway and Denmark;
      culturally and historically Finland and Iceland
      are often considered part of this area.

Despite the term being rather clear for the Scandinavians themselves,
disputes remain about how the term would be understood and derived in
English. If the word is understood as a geographic term, how can then
Denmark be included - as most do. If instead it's deduced from the
area where the languages are quite similar North-Germanians, should
Iceland logically be excluded?

At the risk of disturbing some people's sleep, we will use "Nordic"
and "Scandinavian" interchangeably throughout this FAQ, for practical
reasons. You have been warned. :->
------------------------------------------------------------------

Stefan,
--
Stefan Axelsson                         Chalmers University of Technology

(Remove "rmovt.rply" to send mail.)



Mon, 28 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:

> >  Actually, our English, French, and Spanish "brothers" seemed to have done
> > everything they could to make us their servants (err.. respective colonies).

> If you are against colonising other people's land, why did you stay then ?

OK, so it's off topic:
There are times when I have toyed with the idea of moving to the Azores, because
it is one of those very rare regions where the present occupants didn't
steal the land from someone else.
   -LenZ-
(snip)


Mon, 28 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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