Is LISP or Latin dying? 
Author Message
 Is LISP or Latin dying?

Quote:


>> How does >< work with 32 byte cells?

>        On my system, it does the same thing that the 16 bit version does
>(swaps the least byte with the next byte).

The same.
Do you need Lflip ?
Defined in toolset.f at http://www.*-*-*.com/ ~josv

: flip          ( n - nflip )
   dup th ff and 8 lshift swap th ff00 and 8 rshift + ;

synonym ><      flip

\s
Jos



Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP or Latin dying?


Quote:

> Do you need Lflip ?
> Defined in toolset.f at http://home.wxs.nl/~josv

        I have it (using a different name), but I don't think I've had any
reason to use it.

--

-GJC



Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP or Latin dying?

Quote:


> > I can't quite reconstruct how the Topic "Is LISP dying?" could have
> > possibly eveolved into the fate of Native Americans,

> "dying" ?

Actually, someone accused me of being "elitist" in an on-topic-response,
which I responded (off-topic) that those egalists who wrote the
declaration of independence did omit (among others) the Native Americans
of their equal born men list, which reads "all men are born equal", and
has been interpreted more like "all white male men are born equal" :-(.
Welcome on the Native American discussion which resulted of that.

--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/



Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP or Latin dying?

Quote:

> If you stay within the decimal system (BCDs) you can accommodate for this
> by rounding up, but if you convert between decimal and binary, then you
> get rounding errors with numbers that are rational numbers in decimal but
> irrational numbers in binary representation. In a serious of financial
> transactions these errors can then accumulate to substantial errors.

Financial transactions have rules that are completely solvable by using
integer math. If you have your integers in cents and your intermediate
results in rounded to -infinity half cents, you can do most of the
stuff. Some things are more complicated, e.g. the rounding rules for
transactions in Euro and one of the Euro member currencies. You must
round all the single positions so that the sum gives the same in Euro
and e.g. DM if converted in total and rounded to nearest cent/Pfennig.
This is not more easy in BCD than integer.

--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/



Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP or Latin dying?

Quote:



> > > I can't quite reconstruct how the Topic "Is LISP dying?" could have
> > > possibly eveolved into the fate of Native Americans,

> > "dying" ?

> Actually, someone accused me of being "elitist" in an on-topic-response,
> which I responded (off-topic) that those egalists who wrote the
> declaration of independence did omit (among others) the Native Americans
> of their equal born men list, which reads "all men are born equal", and
> has been interpreted more like "all white male men are born equal" :-(.
> Welcome on the Native American discussion which resulted of that.

> --
> Bernd Paysan
> "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
> http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/

Actually, it says that they are created equal, and refers to a Creator.
The word "born" isn't used. It doesn't try to demonstrate the
correctness of the assertion, but holds it to be "self evident". As a
declaration of independence, it was indeed a political document, but it
wasn't basically about human rights. Rather, it was about the rights the
colonials claimed for themselves.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art       |      Let's talk about what
of making what you want      |      you need; you may see
from things you can get.     |      how to do without it.
---------------------------------------------------------



Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP or Latin dying?

Quote:





> > > > > I can't quite reconstruct how the Topic "Is LISP dying?" could have
> > > > > possibly eveolved into the fate of Native Americans,

> > > > "dying" ?

> > > Actually, someone accused me of being "elitist" in an on-topic-response,
> > > which I responded (off-topic) that those egalists who wrote the
> > > declaration of independence did omit (among others) the Native Americans
> > > of their equal born men list, which reads "all men are born equal", and
> > > has been interpreted more like "all white male men are born equal" :-(.
> > > Welcome on the Native American discussion which resulted of that.

> > > --
> > > Bernd Paysan
> > > "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
> > > http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/

> > Actually, it says that they are created equal, and refers to a Creator.
> > The word "born" isn't used. It doesn't try to demonstrate the
> > correctness of the assertion, but holds it to be "self evident". As a
> > declaration of independence, it was indeed a political document, but it
> > wasn't basically about human rights. Rather, it was about the rights the
> > colonials claimed for themselves.

> And did the colonials not have any women ?

> Benjamin

> --
> As an anti-spam measure I have scrambled my email address here.
> Remove "nospam-" and ROT13 to obtain my email address in clear text.

The exclusion of women from full civil rights came later. In the BofW,
"men" was short for "human kind". How would you interpret "mankind" in
today's context?  Back when radical feminism bordered on insanity
(occasionally crossing the border), a friend insisted that even "person"
was discriminitory. Why not "perdaughter"? When one is determined, it is
easy to find an insult.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art       |      Let's talk about what
of making what you want      |      you need; you may see
from things you can get.     |      how to do without it.
---------------------------------------------------------



Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP or Latin dying?

Quote:


> >ROT13 is also known as "Caesar's cipher", as Gaius Julius Caesar is
> >said to have used it ca. 58 B.C. to encrypt messages to his Roman
> >troops.

> Can't be. The Roman's didn't have the same alphabet as we have now.
> There was no "k" nor "w"; and "v" and "u" were one letter. ;-)

>         Bart.

True enough. However, the equivalent of ROT3 (three, not thir{*filter*}) is
called a "Caesar substitution," because that's what he used.

- wheels



Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP or Latin dying?

Quote:
> From the view of a non-native English speaker, for your amu{*filter*}t.

> When I started to learn programming (BASIC, fortran on a PDP 11,
> Z80 assembly language), I didn't know that the language keywords and
> mnemonics were supposed to mean something in English.

You have a point here (not only for non native speakers of English).

A good example is AppleScript, which is a bit Pascalish in some aspects of
the syntax and a bit lispish in some aspects of its processing features
but most of all it had been designed with the aim to make it look like
plain English...

Example:
Tell application "Finder" to open every folder in the folder "System Folder".

This is nice to read, but it can be an awful task to debug once you have
made the mistake to assume you can just type in English in some fashion
and AppleScript will understand and process it. Apart from ambiguity in
natural language it is also very frustrating if something just can't be
written the way you did and you can't seem to figure out why it wouldn't
recognise your code.

On the other hand, this is by no means a reason to not design syntax and
keywords such that a human reader can easily figure out what the code
means.

Even as a non native speaker of English, you should see the difference if
you were to use one of these code obfuscating utilities on a Perl script
and then try to read it, let alone making sense of it. In many cases
obfuscating may not even be necessary as often humans can do a good job in
that discipline too. ;-)

Benjamin

--
As an anti-spam measure I have scrambled my email address here.
Remove "nospam-" and ROT13 to obtain my email address in clear text.



Fri, 25 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP or Latin dying?

Quote:


> > If you stay within the decimal system (BCDs) you can accommodate for this
> > by rounding up, but if you convert between decimal and binary, then you
> > get rounding errors with numbers that are rational numbers in decimal but
> > irrational numbers in binary representation. In a serious of financial
> > transactions these errors can then accumulate to substantial errors.

> Financial transactions have rules that are completely solvable by using
> integer math. If you have your integers in cents and your intermediate
> results in rounded to -infinity half cents, you can do most of the
> stuff. Some things are more complicated, e.g. the rounding rules for
> transactions in Euro and one of the Euro member currencies. You must
> round all the single positions so that the sum gives the same in Euro
> and e.g. DM if converted in total and rounded to nearest cent/Pfennig.
> This is not more easy in BCD than integer.

I am not suggesting that BCD is the answer to all the problems of
financial math. However, BCD arithmetic in COBOL has been perceived the
number one tool for financial math as it offers some advantages and that
has contributed to COBOL's wide spread use in billing related
applications.

Two other major factors for the success of COBOL are CICS (a widely used
transaction monitoring system) and DB2 (the standard database on IBM M/F).
COBOL is very well integrated with both. In fact I don't know of any other
development environment for CICS.

Even if you were to come up with a superior Lisp based development
environment for CICS ... try to explain the owner of the project, who is
probably sitting on the board of directors of the bank, that you are going
to do the project in Lisp, where all the rest of the world is doing it in
COBOL. That could be quite an interesting situation ultimately leading to
your release from the project.

Benjamin

--
As an anti-spam measure I have scrambled my email address here.
Remove "nospam-" and ROT13 to obtain my email address in clear text.



Fri, 25 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Is LISP dying?

Quote:




> > > > I can't quite reconstruct how the Topic "Is LISP dying?" could have
> > > > possibly eveolved into the fate of Native Americans,

> > > "dying" ?

> > Actually, someone accused me of being "elitist" in an on-topic-response,
> > which I responded (off-topic) that those egalists who wrote the
> > declaration of independence did omit (among others) the Native Americans
> > of their equal born men list, which reads "all men are born equal", and
> > has been interpreted more like "all white male men are born equal" :-(.
> > Welcome on the Native American discussion which resulted of that.

> > --
> > Bernd Paysan
> > "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
> > http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/

> Actually, it says that they are created equal, and refers to a Creator.
> The word "born" isn't used. It doesn't try to demonstrate the
> correctness of the assertion, but holds it to be "self evident". As a
> declaration of independence, it was indeed a political document, but it
> wasn't basically about human rights. Rather, it was about the rights the
> colonials claimed for themselves.

And did the colonials not have any women ?

Benjamin

--
As an anti-spam measure I have scrambled my email address here.
Remove "nospam-" and ROT13 to obtain my email address in clear text.



Fri, 25 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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