Learning symbolic logic from computer AI architecture
Author Message
Learning symbolic logic from computer AI architecture

Quote:

>> When we study symbolic logic, we learn that "If A, then B" can be
>> expressed as "-A V B" -- which means, "Not A, or (exclusively) B."
>                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^
>No, in fact it's an inclusive or.  If you made it exclusive or,
>you'd get the same thing as "A if and only if B".

Oops, sorry.  No wonder I could not visualize the Venn diagram very
well, trying to juxtapose the two "exclusive" fields.

Quote:
>In general, in the statement of a mathematical theorem or proposition,
>"or" is always to be interpreted inclusively unless otherwise stated.

The main thrust of my post was to announce that, in creating
http://www.*-*-*.com/ ,
I seem to have stumbled upon how to build a large symbolic logic
machine, because each English word becomes a manipulable symbol.

The current on-Web source code from 18 Jan 2000 does not yet
make truly logical statements, but by slaving over some corrections
to the problematical code, I have gotten more and more "veridicality"
or logical truthfulness out of the AI.  Suddenly a few days ago
I realized that logic textbooks do not go beyond the few symbols
such as "-A V B", but an artificial mind converts an entire lexicon
of natural-language words into logic symbols that can be
manipulated computationally.

This proposition may become especially clear when I have gotten
around to coding in the linguistic negator and logic operator "NOT"
by attaching it to verbs as a flag that breaks apart otherwise
credible associations between concepts.  Please stay tuned.
Thanks again for the clarification.

Arthur T. Murray

Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:00:00 GMT
Learning symbolic logic from computer AI architecture
You might want to have a look at "Laws of Form" by G. Spencer Brown.
I discovered it while browsing around a college bookstore years and
years ago. I bought it immediately. I still rank it among my most
favorite books. I have no idea if it's still in print. Anyway, it
basically takes symbolic logic, and runs with it along lines you might
find very interesting. For starters, I don't think you would have made
the "exculsively" oops if you had read it.... Also, I think there's a
reference to it on Jeff Fox' ultratechnology page, and I think (either
there, or maybe somewhere else) I heard that it was in the original
Whole Earth Catalog.

Quote:

>>> When we study symbolic logic, we learn that "If A, then B" can be
>>> expressed as "-A V B" -- which means, "Not A, or (exclusively) B."
>>                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^
>>No, in fact it's an inclusive or.  If you made it exclusive or,
>>you'd get the same thing as "A if and only if B".

>Oops, sorry.  No wonder I could not visualize the Venn diagram very
>well, trying to juxtapose the two "exclusive" fields.

>>In general, in the statement of a mathematical theorem or proposition,
>>"or" is always to be interpreted inclusively unless otherwise stated.

>The main thrust of my post was to announce that, in creating
>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/7256/mind4th.html Mind.Forth AI,
>I seem to have stumbled upon how to build a large symbolic logic
>machine, because each English word becomes a manipulable symbol.

>The current on-Web source code from 18 Jan 2000 does not yet
>make truly logical statements, but by slaving over some corrections
>to the problematical code, I have gotten more and more "veridicality"
>or logical truthfulness out of the AI.  Suddenly a few days ago
>I realized that logic textbooks do not go beyond the few symbols
>such as "-A V B", but an artificial mind converts an entire lexicon
>of natural-language words into logic symbols that can be
>manipulated computationally.

>This proposition may become especially clear when I have gotten
>around to coding in the linguistic negator and logic operator "NOT"
>by attaching it to verbs as a flag that breaks apart otherwise
>credible associations between concepts.  Please stay tuned.
>Thanks again for the clarification.

>Arthur T. Murray

--
It is clear to me, that this Windows programming thing is way too hard,
and we should all stop doing it.
- Tom Zimmer, in his Win32Forth Change History notes, Sept. 2, 1999

Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:00:00 GMT
Learning symbolic logic from computer AI architecture

Quote:
>It is clear to me, that this Windows programming thing is way too hard,
>and we should all stop doing it.
>     - Tom Zimmer, in his Win32Forth Change History notes, Sept. 2, 1999

hehe, words from a ~real~ forth programmer.
Try java,javascript, c++ , vb, or maybe some nice products
from borland as builder or delphi...

Yours
Patrik Bagge

Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:00:00 GMT
Learning symbolic logic from computer AI architecture
Bob, don't b sorry, b bold or just ~b~

4th is like many things replaced by 5th and 6th

Yours
Patrik Bagge

Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:00:00 GMT
Learning symbolic logic from computer AI architecture
First, I didn't mean to cross-post to all these newsgroups. I realized
I'd done it about a second after it was too late. Now, here I am doing
it again. Sorry!

Second, I didn't mean to include the quote from Tom Zimmer which,
taken out of context, might be taken wrongly. My read of it is as a
humorous expression of disgust for Windows from a guru-level programmer,
and therefore it's telling about Windows, not Mr. Zimmer (or Forthers
in general). But, in any case, I didn't have any idea it was sitting in
that post (I had put it in my .signature file late last week, for fun
with coworkers via email, and totally forgot about it). Sorry again!!

- Bob "going into deep lurk now" Shafer

Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:00:00 GMT
Learning symbolic logic from computer AI architecture
Quote:

> >> When we study symbolic logic, we learn that "If A, then B" can be
> >> expressed as "-A V B" -- which means, "Not A, or (exclusively) B."
> >                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^
> >No, in fact it's an inclusive or.  If you made it exclusive or,
> >you'd get the same thing as "A if and only if B".

It's "A OR NOT B": ~A V B. The OR is inclusive. Another formulation is
~(A + ~B). These are nor equivalent to either expression above.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:00:00 GMT
Learning symbolic logic from computer AI architecture
Hello Patrik,

Thank you for reminding me.  I haven't been doing any Forth lately, just some

C++.  Guess what?  C++ is just as hard, and possibly worse.

It isn't the programming language that makes Windows programming difficult,
it
is Windows itself.

Tom Zimmer  January 31st, 2000

Quote:

> >It is clear to me, that this Windows programming thing is way too hard,
> >and we should all stop doing it.
> >     - Tom Zimmer, in his Win32Forth Change History notes, Sept. 2, 1999

> hehe, words from a ~real~ forth programmer.
> Try java,javascript, c++ , vb, or maybe some nice products
> from borland as builder or delphi...

> Yours
> Patrik Bagge

Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:00:00 GMT
Learning symbolic logic from computer AI architecture

Quote:

> > >> When we study symbolic logic, we learn that "If A, then B" can be
> > >> expressed as "-A V B" -- which means, "Not A, or (exclusively) B."
> > >                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >No, in fact it's an inclusive or.  If you made it exclusive or,
> > >you'd get the same thing as "A if and only if B".

> It's "A OR NOT B": ~A V B. The OR is inclusive. Rubbish! See below.

: TYPO ." Dumb error" CR ; make that ~(A x ~B) below.

Quote:
>  Another formulation is
> ~(A + ~B). These are nor equivalent to either expression above.

> Jerry

Look at the truth tables for (if A, then B), (A or B), and (~A or B):

A | B | A->B        A | B | A+B    ~A | A | B |~A+B
--+---+-----        --+---+-----   ---|---+---+-----
F | F |  T          F | F |  F      F | T | F |  T
F | T |  T          F | T |  T      F | T | T |  T
T | F |  F          T | F |  T      T | F | F |  F
T | T |  T          T | T |  T      T | F | T |  T

Will anyone believe that I had just awakened from a nap?

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:00:00 GMT
Learning symbolic logic from computer AI architecture

Quote:

> > >> When we study symbolic logic, we learn that "If A, then B" can be
> > >> expressed as "-A V B" -- which means, "Not A, or (exclusively) B."
> > >                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >No, in fact it's an inclusive or.  If you made it exclusive or,
> > >you'd get the same thing as "A if and only if B".

> It's "A OR NOT B": ~A V B. The OR is inclusive. Another formulation is
> ~(A + ~B). These are nor equivalent to either expression above.

> Jerry
> --
> Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Social engineering is the art of never understanding engineering.

Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:00:00 GMT
Learning symbolic logic from computer AI architecture
Tom Zimmer, author of F-PC Forth and main author of Win32Forth, sez:

Quote:
> Hello Patrik,

> Thank you for reminding me.  I haven't been doing any Forth lately,
> just some C++.  Guess what?  C++ is just as hard, and possibly worse.
> It isn't the programming language that makes Windows programming
> difficult, it is Windows itself.

> Tom Zimmer  January 31st, 2000

Hello my indispensable Forth creator Tom Zimmer, hello Patrik Bagge:

Today mon31jan2000 I spent several hours coding Mind.Forth in Win32Forth,
trying to port my updated Amiga version to Windows and trying also to
synchronize the Amiga and IBM-clone versions in their features.

On Fri.28.Jan.2000 I had written some code in Amiga MVP-Forth on
how to make a delay, so that the human user could interrupt the AI:
[ 8 EMIT is a backspace ]
100  999  DO    I .   8 EMIT  8 EMIT  8 EMIT   8 EMIT -1 +LOOP

The above code shows a blurringly fast countdown from 999 to 100.
If there are other, more elegant ways to create in Win32Forth a
time delay which the user may interrupt at will to force the
attention of the program, I would like to learn about them.

Anyway, I finally got Mind.Forth to alternate between offering
the delay-countdown period to the user as a chance for input,
and the autonomous operation of Mind.Forth as a generator of
English sentences/ideas/thoughts.  The trouble was, if I did
not frequently interrupt the program and feed it some input,
after about eight alternations between delay and think-mode,
Windows 98 or Win32Forth stopped the program and declared some
kind of "exception" message, and Win32Forth displayed five or six
lines of what I presumed were error messages.

It was disheartening not to see an infinite loop of alternations.
Probably I will go ahead in February and post the code on the Web at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/7256/mind4th.html GeoCities,
after a few more glitches have been removed.  Then maybe some
Forth expert will tell me how to create delay-periods without
crashing Windows 98.  (It's weird to have to slow the computer
down just to accommodate the human.)

Anyway, productive genius Tom Zimmer, thanks for the really
excellent Forth environments and for putting Win32Forth up free at
ftp://pweb.netcom.com/users/zforth where Mindforthers can get it.

(So far, only a few people e-mail me about their experiences
running Mind.Forth.  I expect the user pool to grow with the
feature pool.  I can't thank you enough for your Forths, Tom.)

Quote:

>> >It is clear to me, that this Windows programming thing is way too hard,
>> >and we should all stop doing it.
>> >     - Tom Zimmer, in his Win32Forth Change History notes, Sept. 2, 1999

>> hehe, words from a ~real~ forth programmer.
>> Try java,javascript, c++ , vb, or maybe some nice products
>> from borland as builder or delphi...

>> Yours
>> Patrik Bagge

Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:00:00 GMT
Learning symbolic logic from computer AI architecture

Quote:

> It isn't the programming language that makes Windows
> programming difficult, it is Windows itself.

> Tom Zimmer  January 31st, 2000

I didn't think it was the fault of your Forth.  ;-)  Windows
Forths do a pretty good job of taming it, but someone still
had to write them and deal with windows at that level. You
have my sympathy and kudos for the effort.

Jeff Fox

I liked the quote but maybe it looses something out of context:

Quote:
>It is clear to me, that this Windows programming thing is way
>too hard, and we should all stop doing it.
> Tom Zimmer, in his Win32Forth Change History notes, Sept. 2, 1999

Maybe it just needs (tm) after "Windows".

Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:00:00 GMT
Learning symbolic logic from computer AI architecture

Quote:
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/7256/mind4th.html Mind.Forth AI,

Does anybody other than myself think that the code on this site is a
good example of why Forth has such a bad reputation for being a
write-only language?

Mark

Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:00:00 GMT
Learning symbolic logic from computer AI architecture

Quote:
>Hello Patrik,

>Thank you for reminding me.  I haven't been doing any Forth lately, just
some

>C++.  Guess what?  C++ is just as hard, and possibly worse.

Hi Tom

yup i agree, msofts C++ is a nightmare, borlands latest builder is
much easier and incredibly fast. A lot of 3'rd party controls and
unlike from vb one can compile it into a single .exe (good for download)
It seems that Java (and related stuff) is arriving at good speed.
Among other things it's originally targeted for hardware (robotics)
If you are trying to make a serious realtime software under win,
you'd better buy an aspirin or two...

anyway, i'm just saying that, using a common language
is going to help market your AI-app, maybe even attract
interest in co-developers.

Yours
Patrik Bagge

Sat, 20 Jul 2002 03:00:00 GMT

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