Why so hard to get started in Eiffel? 
Author Message
 Why so hard to get started in Eiffel?

  Ok, maybe this is just a whine session for me, but I've been trying
(on and off) to get started with Eiffel for about a year and I have yet
to write any code.

  I'm a student with limited funds, so I need a free version.  I
got a trial copy of the ISE environment a few months ago, but it
didn't seem to like my computer because it just kept crashing.  I don't
blame it; my system's pretty weak.

  I then got Small Eiffel and tried to run it, and it turned out I needed
a whole bunch of stuff.  I found a place where they have all the stuff
together and downloaded it all.  I then had to download arj so I could
unpack the archived files.  I then tried to run it and it told me I
needed DPMI.  So I got that, and then it crapped out because I have no
coprocessor.

  What the heck is it about a text translator that needs DPMI and a
coprocessor?!

  I'm not finding this very encouraging.  I keep giving up on Eiffel, and
then I realize that it really is the best OOL out there, and I really
want to give it a try.

  The next thing I'll try will probably be to get the source for
SmallEiffel and compile it myself; but surely that will be fraught with
untold misery.

  Come September I'll be back at school and I'll have access to some
SGI and Sun machines running unix, so I might be able to try Small Eiffel
again there.  I have a size restriction there, though, so my directory
can't take up more than about 7 or 8 megs or they start deleting files.

  How in the world did all of you get started with Eiffel?

 -PD
--
--
Patrick Doyle



Fri, 17 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Why so hard to get started in Eiffel?

Quote:

>   I'm a student with limited funds, so I need a free version.  I
> got a trial copy of the ISE environment a few months ago, but it
> didn't seem to like my computer because it just kept crashing.  I don't
> blame it; my system's pretty weak.

>   I then got Small Eiffel and tried to run it, and it turned out I needed
> a whole bunch of stuff.  I found a place where they have all the stuff
> together and downloaded it all.  I then had to download arj so I could
> unpack the archived files.  I then tried to run it and it told me I
> needed DPMI.  So I got that, and then it crapped out because I have no
> coprocessor.

>   What the heck is it about a text translator that needs DPMI and a
> coprocessor?!

SmallEiffel is a neat little compiler, but it's a cross-platform product
(Unix/Windows) and depends on the GNU compiler for its back-end, so
its configuration requirements are rather different from mainstream
Windows products.

Quote:
>   I'm not finding this very encouraging.  I keep giving up on Eiffel, and
> then I realize that it really is the best OOL out there, and I really
> want to give it a try.

Assuming you have Win95 or NT, a 486 or better and 16MB or more RAM, you
should certainly consider downloading the free version of Visual Eiffel.
Its not time-limited, and is self-contained (doesn't use a back-end
C compiler). The free version is limited to P-code compilation of
console-mode applications, but that shouldn't be any problem for learning
Eiffel. When you've learned it, you can then download the "DM" RAD Tool
to develop windowing applications - there's also a free "lite" version.

You can download it from http://www.eiffel.demon.co.uk, where you'll also
find some "installation and getting started" instructions.

Regards,
Roger
--
--
-- Roger Browne, 6 Bambers Walk, Wesham, PR4 3DG, UK | Ph 01772-687525
-- Everything Eiffel: http://www.eiffel.demon.co.uk/ | +44-1772-687525



Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Why so hard to get started in Eiffel?

[...]

Quote:

> Assuming you have Win95 or NT, a 486 or better and 16MB or more RAM, you
> should certainly consider downloading the free version of Visual Eiffel.
> Its not time-limited, and is self-contained (doesn't use a back-end
> C compiler). The free version is limited to P-code compilation of
> console-mode applications, but that shouldn't be any problem for learning
> Eiffel. When you've learned it, you can then download the "DM" RAD Tool
> to develop windowing applications - there's also a free "lite" version.

Or better yet. You can install Linux on your machine, then run
SmallEiffel,
or if you have any money left you could spend $100 on ISE Eiffel
compiler
for Linux.

...richie

--


*          Home page:   http://www.netlabs.net/hp/richieb          *
*        "Fight software piracy, use free software!" (me)          *
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Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Why so hard to get started in Eiffel?



Quote:

>SmallEiffel is a neat little compiler, but it's a cross-platform product
>(Unix/Windows) and depends on the GNU compiler for its back-end, so
>its configuration requirements are rather different from mainstream
>Windows products.

  I think I'll try it on the school unix machines.

Quote:
>Assuming you have Win95 or NT, a 486 or better and 16MB or more RAM, you
>should certainly consider downloading the free version of Visual Eiffel.

  What do you suggest for a 486SLC50 with 8MB running Win3.1?  (Now
you see why I don't blame the ISE environment for not working. :-)

Quote:
>Its not time-limited, and is self-contained (doesn't use a back-end
>C compiler). The free version is limited to P-code compilation of
>console-mode applications, but that shouldn't be any problem for learning
>Eiffel. When you've learned it, you can then download the "DM" RAD Tool
>to develop windowing applications - there's also a free "lite" version.

  P-code?  So it would run through an interpreter?

  Thanks for the info.

 -PD

--
--
Patrick Doyle



Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Why so hard to get started in Eiffel?



Quote:

>Or better yet. You can install Linux on your machine, then run
>SmallEiffel,
>or if you have any money left you could spend $100 on ISE Eiffel
>compiler
>for Linux.

  I'm not against spending $100.  I've been thinking of going Linux
for some time now.  Tempting...

 -PD

 PS.  Is t true that SmallEiffel has no garbage collection?
--
--
Patrick Doyle



Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Why so hard to get started in Eiffel?

Quote:

>   How in the world did all of you get started with Eiffel?load Eiffel/S 1.3 - it works with DOS - and we have on our server

also the GCC you need as backend. We have a link in our WEB page
(see below)

I think, 8 MByte and 386 are sufficient ..

--

Object Tools GmbH                    http://www.object-tools.com
D 35619 Braunfels                              + 49 6472-911 030



Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Why so hard to get started in Eiffel?

Quote:


> >   How in the world did all of you get started with Eiffel?

  load Eiffel/S 1.3 - it works with DOS - and we have on our server
Quote:
> also the GCC you need as backend. We have a link in our WEB page
> (see below)

> I think, 8 MByte and 386 are sufficient ..

.. I forgot to mention: its shareware - so you start free and
can pay later 50$ - to get the unlimited version.

--

Object Tools GmbH                    http://www.object-tools.com
D 35619 Braunfels                              + 49 6472-911 030



Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Why so hard to get started in Eiffel?

Quote:
Patrick Doyle writes:
>   What do you suggest for a 486SLC50 with 8MB running Win3.1?  (Now
> you see why I don't blame the ISE environment for not working. :-)

You can run the shareware version of Eiffel/S 1.3 (available from the
Object Tools website http://www.object-tools.com/) on a 386 with 5MB
RAM, but it needs a C back-end, so if you were uncomfortable configuring
Gnu C++ for SmallEiffel then you will have a similar problem with Eiffel/S.

Once configured, Eiffel/S works rather nicely.

Quote:
> >[Visual Eiffel] is not time-limited, and is self-contained (doesn't use a
> >back-end C compiler). The free version is limited to P-code compilation of
> >console-mode applications, but that shouldn't be any problem for learning
> >Eiffel. When you've learned it, you can then download the "DM" RAD Tool
> >to develop windowing applications - there's also a free "lite" version.

>   P-code?  So it would run through an interpreter?

The interpreter is part of the Visual Eiffel runtime - you won't even know
it's there, and you don't have to install it separately. (The commercial
versions of course compile to native code.)

Besides, only one cluster needs to be interpreted - all
other clusters (both library clusters and your own) can be precompiled to
native code even with the free "Lite" version.

But you would need to upgrade to 16MB RAM, and install Win95 to run Visual
Eiffel.

Quote:
> PS.  Is t true that SmallEiffel has no garbage collection?

It's true. But you can run it with the free Boehm conservative collector,
which gives you garbage collection but not finalization.

Regards,
Roger
--
--
-- Roger Browne, 6 Bambers Walk, Wesham, PR4 3DG, UK | Ph 01772-687525
-- Everything Eiffel: http://www.eiffel.demon.co.uk/ | +44-1772-687525



Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Why so hard to get started in Eiffel?

[...]

Quote:
>  -PD

>  PS.  Is t true that SmallEiffel has no garbage collection?
> --

Yes, it's true. However you should be able to hook up the
C/C++ Hans Boem collector to SmallEiffel if you really need
it.

...richie

--


*          Home page:   http://www.netlabs.net/hp/richieb          *
*        "Fight software piracy, use free software!" (me)          *
*        (Remove XYZZY  from my address before replying)           *



Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Why so hard to get started in Eiffel?

[...]

Quote:

>   What do you suggest for a 486SLC50 with 8MB running Win3.1?  (Now
> you see why I don't blame the ISE environment for not working. :-)

Linux without X windows will run happily in 8Meg. Then just use emacs
and SmallEiffel.

;-)

...richie

--


*          Home page:   http://www.netlabs.net/hp/richieb          *
*        "Fight software piracy, use free software!" (me)          *
*        (Remove XYZZY  from my address before replying)           *



Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Why so hard to get started in Eiffel?

Quote:


>[...]

>> Assuming you have Win95 or NT, a 486 or better and 16MB or more RAM, you
>> should certainly consider downloading the free version of Visual Eiffel.
>> Its not time-limited, and is self-contained (doesn't use a back-end
>> C compiler). The free version is limited to P-code compilation of
>> console-mode applications, but that shouldn't be any problem for learning
>> Eiffel. When you've learned it, you can then download the "DM" RAD Tool
>> to develop windowing applications - there's also a free "lite" version.
>Or better yet. You can install Linux on your machine, then run
>SmallEiffel,
>or if you have any money left you could spend $100 on ISE Eiffel
>compiler
>for Linux.

Ahh, but it'll still run painfully slow on an 8M machine!  Tho the
Linux will help, at least it _will_ run.  If you could manage to
shoehorn 32M RAM into that machine, you might even find the run speed
acceptable.

---
Dan Wilder



Sun, 19 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Why so hard to get started in Eiffel?



Quote:
>Patrick Doyle writes:
>You can run the shareware version of Eiffel/S 1.3 (available from the
>Object Tools website http://www.object-tools.com/) on a 386 with 5MB
>RAM, but it needs a C back-end, so if you were uncomfortable configuring
>Gnu C++ for SmallEiffel then you will have a similar problem with Eiffel/S.

>Once configured, Eiffel/S works rather nicely.

  Ok, I have Eiffel/S now.  I think I got all the various pieces I need.
I haven't had much opportunity to try it just yet...

  One question: is the PDL language a part of Eiffel or is it just a
feature of this particular development system?  Are they like ISE's ACE
files?

 -PD
--
--
Patrick Doyle



Sun, 19 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Why so hard to get started in Eiffel?

Quote:
Patrick Doyle writes:
>   One question: is the PDL language a part of Eiffel or is it just a
> feature of this particular development system?  Are they like ISE's ACE
> files?

The Eiffel standard doesn't specify the system assembly language - an
implementation is free to use any language, or even a non-language GUI
approach. However, ACE is used by ISE, Tower and Halstanbach, and is described
in ETL.

Eiffel/S uses PDL (Program Description Language) and Visual Eiffel uses ESD
(Eiffel System Description), both of which have are simpler but slightly less
powerful than LACE (Language for Assembling Components in Eiffel).

Regards,
Roger
--
--
-- Roger Browne, 6 Bambers Walk, Wesham, PR4 3DG, UK | Ph 01772-687525
-- Everything Eiffel: http://www.eiffel.demon.co.uk/ | +44-1772-687525



Mon, 20 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 
 [ 13 post ] 

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