Macintosh Dylan ? 
Author Message
 Macintosh Dylan ?

Hello,

What alternatives are there for Dylan on the Macintosh ? I have the old
Apple TR for the 68K and although I like the environment
I would like something a bit more up to date (and native on the PPC). It
doesn't appear that Digitool continued the TR after
they ported it to the PPC. Maybe Apple/Digitool would open source it ?

So, suggestions on a Dylan development environment for the Mac ?

Cheers,

Tim Lahey



Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Macintosh Dylan ?
Hi.

There's a folder at the Gwydion Dylan ftp site called "Macintosh" which
contains a version of the latest Mindy for Macintosh as an AppleScriptable,
stand-alone Compiler, and a command-line Interpreter. Text streams and
shared library support are working, and a Mac Toolbox library will soon be
forthcoming.
There may be a version of d2c for Macintosh at some point in the future,
there will certainly be one for MacOS-X.


breath, though...

- Rob.

Quote:

> Hello,

> What alternatives are there for Dylan on the Macintosh ? I have the old
> Apple TR for the 68K and although I like the environment
> I would like something a bit more up to date (and native on the PPC). It
> doesn't appear that Digitool continued the TR after
> they ported it to the PPC. Maybe Apple/Digitool would open source it ?

> So, suggestions on a Dylan development environment for the Mac ?

> Cheers,

> Tim Lahey



Fri, 01 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Macintosh Dylan ?

Quote:

> There's a folder at the Gwydion Dylan ftp site called "Macintosh" which
> contains a version of the latest Mindy for Macintosh as an AppleScriptable,
> stand-alone Compiler, and a command-line Interpreter. Text streams and
> shared library support are working, and a Mac Toolbox library will soon be
> forthcoming.

Rob,

How is this supposed to work?  I'm having no luck at all with it.

Dropping hw.lid onto "compile lid(s) droplet" gives:

Opening "Mindy Compiler", choosing "Easy Compile" and entering "::hello
world:hw.lid" and "hello-world" gives:

::hello world:hw.lid:2: warning: no module: header, assuming Dylan-User
::hello world:hw.lid:4: error: syntax error at or before `hw'

I just don't get it, and I *know* how to use Mindy and d2c on Linux...

Where is the source code?  I'd *vastly* prefer an MPW version to this one.

-- Bruce



Fri, 01 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Macintosh Dylan ?

Bruce Hoult wrote (regarding PowerMacMindy):

Quote:
> How is this supposed to work?  I'm having no luck at all with it.

There are some minimal docs in the download.

Quote:
> Dropping hw.lid onto "compile lid(s) droplet" gives:

Is there an error message missing here in your posting? Please forward it to me,
the droplet shouldn't die silently. I use the droplet to compile my own projects,
and it was my original tool for compiling *all* the Mindy and Common libraries.

Quote:
> Opening "Mindy Compiler", choosing "Easy Compile" and entering "::hello
> world:hw.lid" and "hello-world" gives:

> ::hello world:hw.lid:2: warning: no module: header, assuming Dylan-User
> ::hello world:hw.lid:4: error: syntax error at or before `hw'

Easy compile works with individual source files, not lids. It's in the Docs.

So enter:

    hello-world
    ::hello-world:hw-exports.dylan

then

    hello-world
    ::hello-world:hw.dylan

and run Mindy Runner with the command line
    -f "::hello world:hw-exports.dbc" -f "::hello world:hw.dbc"

You can use the "Compile" file menu option to enter a traditional Mindy command
line, UN*X-style. Don't press cancel or you'll quit the program. This is being
worked on.

Quote:
> Where is the source code?  I'd *vastly* prefer an MPW version to this one.

The source code is just in CVS. Get the main branch. I've actually built an MPW
tool before, but for both major practical reasons and politics I haven't maintained
the code.
The practical reasons are: You need more UN*X headers and glue code. The runner is
stuck as an MPW tool or a sucky SIOUW application. CodeWarrior's libraries help
more with files and the de{*filter*}.
The political reasons are: I want this port to be taken seriously, and a command
line hack in MPW won't have give the same impression as a stand-alone program or a
CW plugin.

I'm sorry you've had a had a bad experience with my port. Try "easy compile" again.
Let me know what error the compile lid droplet throws as well, and the version of
the OS you're using: this is useful debugging feedback.

- Rob.



Fri, 01 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Macintosh Dylan ?
PowerMac Mindy works fine for me!

Just tried the hw.lid onto the droplet again - Nothing 'appears' to happen
as the Mindy compiler is launched in the background and, if all goes well,
just produces the .dbc files and stops. The droplet should then produce a
file hw-lib.dbc in the 'hello world' directory.

Firing up the Runner and entering -f "<replace with full path to hello world
folder>:hw-lib.dbc" should run the program.

If you still can't get it to run and Rob has not solved it for you first get
in touch and I'll try to help.

Regards
Gareth Baker
CCLRC Daresbury Laboratory

Quote:



>> There's a folder at the Gwydion Dylan ftp site called "Macintosh" which
>> contains a version of the latest Mindy for Macintosh as an
AppleScriptable,
>> stand-alone Compiler, and a command-line Interpreter. Text streams and
>> shared library support are working, and a Mac Toolbox library will soon
be
>> forthcoming.

>Rob,

>How is this supposed to work?  I'm having no luck at all with it.

>Dropping hw.lid onto "compile lid(s) droplet" gives:

>Opening "Mindy Compiler", choosing "Easy Compile" and entering "::hello
>world:hw.lid" and "hello-world" gives:

>::hello world:hw.lid:2: warning: no module: header, assuming Dylan-User
>::hello world:hw.lid:4: error: syntax error at or before `hw'

>I just don't get it, and I *know* how to use Mindy and d2c on Linux...

>Where is the source code?  I'd *vastly* prefer an MPW version to this one.

>-- Bruce



Fri, 01 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Macintosh Dylan ?

Quote:

> > There are some minimal docs in the download.

> Yes.  It doesn't work as decribed.

I'll Dyno-Rod the docs for the next release.

Quote:
> Oops.  It's *damn* hard to get the error message, as it's reported in a
> modal dialog that can't be moved, doesn't let you switch to another app,
> and doesn't let you copy the message.  It says:

> "Folder BruceHD:PowerMacMindy:hello world:hello-world-lib.dbc wans't found"

(The dialog is not mine, it's AppleScript's...) This is most odd: I don't know why
the AppleScript is treating a file as a folder. I'll look at this.

Quote:
> > Easy compile works with individual source files, not lids. It's in the Docs.

> No it's not.

OK, Dyno-Rod time.

Quote:
> I did it the other way around and it worked this time.  Even got it to run
> with Mindy Runner :-)

Excellent!

Quote:
> Stand-alone program that works, great.  But, seriously,
> the current "type part of a unix command line into a sucky little modal
> dialog box" is the worst of all possible worlds.  I'd *far* rather have an
> MPW tool that I can set up with a makefile just like in Unix.

The app was made this way to prove viability and to get going quickly. I'm now
ready to do more. Not an MPW tool just yet, though.

Quote:
> At the least, let's have it so that you can drag&drop *.dylan files onto
> "Mindy Compiler" (or if the lid compile applescript worked that would be
> ok),

Your bug report is the first I've had regarding the droplet. The infomation you
have given me will help to fix any problems.
Dragging *.dylan files onto the compiler without their accompanying library
information does not make sense, and would neccessitate a dialog of a suckiness
that would make a Dyson turn pale.
I will probably re-factor the application into a scriptable C lid droplet, and a
scriptable C command line compiler. A lot of the work I've been doing over the
last few months has been directed at building mindy & mindycomp as shared
libraries to facilitate this.

Quote:
> and drag&drop the dbc files onto the runner

Whilst possible, this would be an excercise in frustration for the user if more
than one file were dragged: they'd have to select them all in exactly the right
order. However, it would be trivial to do this with drop*unix, so I'll take a
look. No promises, though.

Quote:
> -- or better just
> drag&drop the lid file onto the runner and it figures it out.

This is an interesting idea, easy to do with a script if the runner were
scriptable. I'll look at it. I'm working on a system to make self-running files a
la AppleScript & Perl.

Quote:
> I love Mac applications.  I love Unix applications.  I can't stand things
> that are neither.

Well, your input is helping to fix this. Stay tuned. :-)

- Rob.



Fri, 01 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Macintosh Dylan ?

Quote:

> Bruce Hoult wrote (regarding PowerMacMindy):

> > How is this supposed to work?  I'm having no luck at all with it.

> There are some minimal docs in the download.

Yes.  It doesn't work as decribed.

Quote:
> > Dropping hw.lid onto "compile lid(s) droplet" gives:

> Is there an error message missing here in your posting?

Oops.  It's *damn* hard to get the error message, as it's reported in a
modal dialog that can't be moved, doesn't let you switch to another app,
and doesn't let you copy the message.  It says:

"Folder BruceHD:PowerMacMindy:hello world:hello-world-lib.dbc wans't found"

Quote:
> > Opening "Mindy Compiler", choosing "Easy Compile" and entering "::hello
> > world:hw.lid" and "hello-world" gives:

> > ::hello world:hw.lid:2: warning: no module: header, assuming Dylan-User
> > ::hello world:hw.lid:4: error: syntax error at or before `hw'

> Easy compile works with individual source files, not lids. It's in the Docs.

No it's not.

Quote:
> So enter:

>     hello-world
>     ::hello-world:hw-exports.dylan

> then

>     hello-world
>     ::hello-world:hw.dylan

Aren't those reversed?

I did it the other way around and it worked this time.  Even got it to run
with Mindy Runner :-)

Quote:
> The political reasons are: I want this port to be taken seriously,
> and a command line hack in MPW won't have give the same impression
> as a stand-alone program or a CW plugin.

CW plugin, great.  Stand-alone program that works, great.  But, seriously,
the current "type part of a unix command line into a sucky little modal
dialog box" is the worst of all possible worlds.  I'd *far* rather have an
MPW tool that I can set up with a makefile just like in Unix.

At the least, let's have it so that you can drag&drop *.dylan files onto
"Mindy Compiler" (or if the lid compile applescript worked that would be
ok), and drag&drop the dbc files onto the runner -- or better just
drag&drop the lid file onto the runner and it figures it out.

I love Mac applications.  I love Unix applications.  I can't stand things
that are neither.

Quote:
> I'm sorry you've had a had a bad experience with my port.

It was totally unexpected.  I've been intensively using d2c and Mindy on
Linux for months now.  And I've been a Mac toobox programmer and MPW user
for twelve years and CodeWarrior user for five years.  But MPW is the very
first app I launch every time I boot up my Mac and I want to use Mindy and
d2c (which I'm working on) there, just like I use perl there.

Quote:
> the version of
> the OS you're using: this is useful debugging feedback.

8.6 on an 8500/266 (NewerTech G3), 128 MB RAM.  8.6 on a PowerBook G3/266,
128 MB RAM.

-- Bruce



Sat, 02 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Macintosh Dylan ?

Quote:

> But MPW is the very first app I launch every time I boot up my Mac
> and I want to use Mindy and d2c (which I'm working on) there, just
> like I use perl there.

Just out of curiosity, for the Mac challenged (ie. me), what is MPW?

Chris.



Sat, 02 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Macintosh Dylan ?

Quote:

> Just out of curiosity, for the Mac challenged (ie. me), what is MPW?

Macintosh Programmer's Workshop.  Apple's official Mac development
environment since at least 1987 (which is when I started using it).
Actually, I think it was 1.0beta when I started using it :-)

It's your basic multi-window GUI text editor, except that it's also a
command shell.  Every window is a command shell.  Type a line "echo hello
world" and hit <enter> instead of <return> and it runs the command and
inserts the output of the command into the text of the window.  Unlike
"shell" mode in emacs, which foces all interaction to the bottom of the
buffer, MPW lets you execute commands anywhere.  So you can have a file
with a number of canned command sequences and just select them and hit
<enter> to run them.  "Undo" removes the output again if you don't want
it.

As a shell it's pretty unix-like, but with changed command names: "files"
instead of "ls", "search" instead of "grep", "streamedit" instead of
"sed".  Etc.  "make" is still "make".  Redirection and pipes work, though
pipes are via temp files.  The syntax of regular expressions is a bit
different, as they use 8-bit characters for the special stuff rather than
forcing you to use \ a lot.  Actually, the equivilent of \ itself is an
8-bit character: lowercase delta.

There is a built in version control system that works pretty well.

You can rebind any key to an arbitrary shell command (or script).  There
are commands for scripting simple dialog boxes and file pickers and list
pickers.

All GUI editing actions can be performed by shell commands.  The easiest
way to do many tasks is to write a script that opens a text file (or
series of files) in a window and uses scripted find/cut/copy/paste etc to
modify the file.  You can set markers in the file (programatically or
manually) and then use them in regular expressions in find.  You can
transfer text between the file being edited and script variables using
echo and catenate.

Most of the Unix command-line tools have been ported to MPW over the
years.  flex and bison, of course.  Perl.

You get the idea, I'm sure...

-- Bruce



Sat, 02 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Macintosh Dylan ?

Quote:

> <The error message> says:

> "Folder BruceHD:PowerMacMindy:hello world:hello-world-lib.dbc wans't found"

Hi.

Is your copy of PowerMacMindy on the desktop? This might throw the AppleScript. If
it is, try moving it actually on to the hard disk.
Is hello-world-lib.dbc actually created during the execution of the script?

Thanks.

- Rob.



Sat, 02 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Macintosh Dylan ?

Quote:

> <big bug report>

Thanks for the info. I won't be able to take a look until Thursday now, but I'll let
you know as soon as there's a fix. This runs fine on 8.6 (and 8.0, 8.1, etc. before
that) on my aging 8200, and Gareth's bug reports have all been to do with streams,
not the droplets. :-)

- Rob.



Sat, 02 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 Macintosh Dylan ?

Quote:


> > <The error message> says:

> > "Folder BruceHD:PowerMacMindy:hello world:hello-world-lib.dbc wans't found"

> Hi.

> Is your copy of PowerMacMindy on the desktop?

No, if it was then the path would be "BruceHD:Desktop
Folder:PowerMacMindy:hello world:hello-world-lib.dbc".

In fact, I just tried putting it on the desktop and that's exactly what it said.

Quote:
> Is hello-world-lib.dbc actually created during the execution of the script?

No.

the script is crapping out in the first line here...

      open for access file libFileName with write permission
      set eof of file libFileName to 0 -- Nuke the library file if it exists

.. and the error is getting caught, and it's then crapping out in the
error handler because the file still doesn't exist:

   on error errText number errNum
      close access file libFileName -- Close the bytecode file
   end try

I tried creating a file called hello-world-lib.dbc (I just duplicated one
of the  Dylan files and changed the name) and now it works fine.

-- Bruce



Sun, 03 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 
 [ 12 post ] 

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