Time for a new subject header ( was RE: unsubscribe? ) 
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 Time for a new subject header ( was RE: unsubscribe? )

Quote:
>----------

>Sent:       Wednesday, October 30, 1996 10:35 AM

>Subject:    Re: unsubscribe?

>>> Perhaps you'd care to share the reasons you think so? From my point of
>>> view, Dylan has disappeared completely. www.cambridge.apple.com is gone.
>                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   Hmmm, that's curious because my web browser is pointing
>   right that site right now in another window on my Xterminal.
>   Or is it a {*filter*}??? ;-)   The DNS was screwed up off and on

{*filter*}! The government must be at the bottom of this. It's a coverup
by the Department of Defense aimed
at promoting Ada! :-)

Quote:
>Sarcasm aside, there is nothing in the magazines because there isn't anything
>new specifically to report.... at the moment.  If there was, and it wasn't
>being "report" then folks could rightfully "complain".

That's exactly the problem. There's nothing to report. Meanwhile,
there's 20 bazillion new reports and developments about Java every damn
day, gobbling up all the available mindshare.  And I wasn't just
referring to PC World and it's ilk. I'm thinking of the Journal of
Object-Oriented Programming, MacTech, Dr. Dobbs, etc...

Quote:

>   To be fair that "TR" after "Apple Dylan" is significant. It is not a
>   finished product, let alone tweaked for speed/space.  I wonder how big

That was exactly my point. It was the wrong direction for Apple to go
in. It took them years to get out the door and it hasn't helped promote
Dylan. If they had focused less on making a cool environment, they could
have spent more time on delivering the language. I don't care about
object editors as much as I care about the language. A simple IDE with a
good compiler and good deliverables would have meant Dylan could be
feasible for commercial development *now*, and not at some unknown point
in the future.

Quote:

>   Or start Metrowerks Codewarrior, Java compiler, the de{*filter*}, the browser,
>   etc.

True, with everything going it can get big - but I can run CW on a 16
megabyte Mac, with good performance. I can't even hope to get the Apple
Dylan TR up on my 24 megabyte machine.

Quote:
>   Furthermore, "big slow" apps isn't exactly keeping folks from Java world.

Well, that's 'cause their brains are all cooked :-). Java is something
of an exception given all the hype and hoopla. People seem to be willing
to overlook the fact that it's 30-40 times slower than C++ ( my soul is
crying out "LISP!" in anguished tones ). And it doesn't help that James
Gosling is out claiming that optimized Java can run faster than C++ (it
can't, and it won't ever, but the statement definitely grabs attention).

Quote:
>>> If they'd concentrated instead on an optimizing compiler and gotten it
>>> out there before Java hit, we'd be in a very different position today.

>   But that is exactly what sun did NOT do. Perhaps you can make an argument
>   that Apple should have done what CMU did and released "FreeDylan" ( a
>   mindy like construct or perhaps a Marlias like construct. )
>   If they'd had leveraged passing out the free documentation over the web
>and
>   given away a free implementations... then...   It still wouldn't have the
>   "hype factor" of Java for lack of the internet "tie in".

True, Sun capitalized on the Internet connection, since the Internet is
the hottest thing since sliced bread these days, and we can all see how
well it worked ( Sun is not exactly known for their advertising muscle
). Sun basically let the world market Java for them. Apple has far more
marketing muscle, but then, they're not exactly in touch with the world.

Adam



Sun, 18 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Time for a new subject header ( was RE: unsubscribe? )

In article <comp.lang.dylan.c=US%a=_%p=Brightware

Quote:
> That was exactly my point. It was the wrong direction for Apple to go
> in. It took them years to get out the door and it hasn't helped promote
> Dylan. If they had focused less on making a cool environment, they could
> have spent more time on delivering the language. I don't care about
> object editors as much as I care about the language. A simple IDE with a
> good compiler and good deliverables would have meant Dylan could be
> feasible for commercial development *now*, and not at some unknown point
> in the future.

I can sympathise with youon this point. I don't know how long I may
have to wait for a Dylan that I can use instead of C++. Obviously,
I could use Mindy, but not as an alternative to C++. Even a native
code Dylan that runs from a command line could be enough, so long
as it supports the basics. Everything else can be bootstrapped.

Typical C++ enviroments are very easy to compete with. However,
a Dylan system would still need to support the _basics_ of software
development for a particular platform.

Consider Java for a moment. You can develop in Java using a command
line compiler and an editor - plus the JVM, of course. But that's all
you'd need. A slick enviroment would help, but the lack of one would
hardly stop you from using Java.

A C++ programmer might use only a C++ compiler and an editor. All
the other tools that might be used could be seen as optional extras.
They make using C++ easier, but they're not essential. I wouldn't
want to use C++ without 'make', but some people run compilers from
their editor.

Now imagine a native code Dylan compiler that could be run from a
programmable editor, like Emacs. There's nothing new about that
'enviroment', so most of the effort would go into developing the
compiler. That would be enough to help developers begin using Dylan
to write apps. The slick enviroments can come later.

What I'm saying is that there's a pattern here. Some people seem
to think that Dylan shouldn't follow this pattern, dispite the
fact that it works. If the language and the compilers for it are
good enough, people will be happy. If they don't do what developers
want, the quality of the enviroments will be irrelevant.

Perhaps Apple made the right move. I'm not doubting Dylan, but
I might question the assumption that we must wait until _all_
the features are there, like a decent enviroment. 90% of Dylan
available Real Soon Now could be better than waiting for 100%
of Dylan and not getting it before it's necessary to commit to
an existing development tool, like C++.

Apple made a tough choice, but they're not the only ones. If
you had to choose the tool you'll be using for the next 5 years,
starting tomorrow, it may be hard to choose Dylan. With choices
like that, the quality of an enviroment that's delivered too
late is a small comfort.

Of course, some of us have the luxury of being able to wait.
If Dylan implementors can eventually get their work out the
door, we'll be there to use them. While we wait, we'll have
to use something else, of course. So it goes.
--
<URL:http://www.enrapture.com/cybes/> You can never browse enough
Future generations are relying on us
It's a world we've made - Incubus
We're living on a knife edge, looking for the ground -- Hawkwind



Mon, 19 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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