promoting dylan 
Author Message
 promoting dylan

Dylan is such a great language, that I am very disappointed by the
little numbers of its users and suppliers.

As it comes very close to something like the 'ultimate programming language'
I would dare to see as many programmers code (and think) in dylan as in
java.

But how to achieve this? In my opinion we need to associate dylan with
some new 'mega-trend'. This was the key to the success of java: java and the

internet are almost synonyms.

But what could be connotated with dylan?

- MacOSX: If availabe on Intel hardware, this might become (over 5 yeras or
so)
                 a big competitor to Windows. So, maybe, try to establish
Dylan
                 as the premier programming language for MacOSX.

- 3rd-Generation-Wireless-Phones-PDA's: High-Bandwidth cellular phones/PDA's

                are the next big thing. 'A computer in every pocket' might
be the slogan,
                but they will surely surpass desktop computers in volume in
less than
                5 years. Maybe we should try to associate Dylan with these
devices of
                the future. Define an 'Embedded Dylan' subset and spend more
thoughts
                on compile-time gc or explicit deallocation, and resource
minimization in
                general (a weak point of dylan IMHO). Ironically Apple
announced Dylan as
                the language of their Newton devices a decade ago, but as we
all know...
               (newton-script, not bad though).

- Domain Specific Languages: Class-Libraries and Frameworks define terms
(types) to operate
               upon. In effect, they provide the vocabulary of an (abstract
syntax) language on top of
           the implementation language. With a powerful macro-system you
could build a specific
               concrete syntax for these and thereby ease programming. This
is clearly one of
               the major assets of Dylan and should be promoted much more.
But still need a key reference.

- Aspect oriented Programming: Interesting thoughts from PARC on the future
of
               object oriented programming. Some things still don't make it
easily into components, like
               exception-handling, logging, synchronization, licensing,
distribution etc. and need a more
               global point of view. Aspects try to locate these tasks in
one place under one abstraction, but
               with global effects.
               Dylan clearly separates protocols (set of methods over types)
from types and thereby allow
               multiple views (aspects) to be defined upon types. The macro
system might produce the global
               effects needed. (BTW, whats the best way to code before and
after methods in Dylan?).
               So, as AOP might become a trend, Dylan could/should be the
language of choice.

Ok, just some ad-hoc ideas. I am a litte bit afraid that this wonderful
language doesn't stand a chance
against java (which is just cold-coffee if you ask me:-)

marc



Fri, 08 Nov 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 promoting dylan

Quote:
> - MacOSX: If availabe on Intel hardware, this might become (over 5 yeras or
> so a big competitor to Windows. So, maybe, try to establish Dylan
> as the premier programming language for MacOSX.

The Gwydion Dylan Maintainers are working on getting our d2c Dylan compiler
running on MacOS X and Darwin (the open-source core OS used under MacOS X). We
already have our Mindy bytecode compiler running on both platforms, and the
latest release of Gwydion Dylan should run Mindy on MacOS X out of the box.
On MacOS 9, we have the only currently available Dylan IDE other than
Functional Developer in the form of Gabor Greif's CodeWarrior d2c plugin. I'm
using this to port DUIM to d2c, and I know other people are using it on
non-trivial projects. We also have Dylan libraries that add Mac Toolbox
support, sample code for applications under Classic and Carbon, a tiny
application framework, and plans to port the Dylan User Interface Manager to
Carbon.
So we're working on it. :-)

Quote:
> - Domain Specific Languages

Do you have any references or examples for this? It sounds interesting.

Quote:
> - Aspect oriented Programming:

Again, do you have references / examples for this?

Quote:
> (BTW, whats the best way to code before and after methods in Dylan?).

Like before and after methods in Lisp? I don't fully remember the symantics.
But I'm sure someone else will, especially if you post an example. :-)

- Rob.

--

MacOS wonderfulness for The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy Game.
"Arthur bought the Apple anyway."-So Long & Thanks For All The Fish.



Fri, 08 Nov 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 promoting dylan


Quote:
> - MacOSX: If availabe on Intel hardware, this might become (over 5 yeras or
> so)
>                  a big competitor to Windows.

Does anybody think that this will happen ? I heard rumors that MS bribed or
threatened Apple
not to do that. I know that Darwin is available, but not the rest.

BTW. does anybody know what display technology OS X is using (didn't see a
mention of X Windows on Apple site).

Roman



Fri, 08 Nov 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 promoting dylan

Quote:

> BTW. does anybody know what display technology OS X is using (didn't see a
> mention of X Windows on Apple site).

As was announced at the May 1998 WWDC, OS X is using "Quartz" as the display
and stored picture technology.  Quartz is to PDF as NeXT's Display
postscript is to PostScript.  It's a 2-D display system using PostScript
primitives but based on a data structure rather than a programming
language.  When you copy & paste things between applications, what you
copy and paste will be exactly PDF.

I'm not aware of Apple having announced support for X, but it's a
certainty that if they don't then 3rd parties will step in -- it's just
not that hard these days, and there is excellent open-source X support in
e.g. LinuxPPC, VNC and so forth.

-- Bruce



Sat, 09 Nov 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 promoting dylan

Quote:
> -----Ursprngliche Nachricht-----

> Gesendet am:       Montag, 22. Mai 2000 16:38
> An:        Schlichte, Marc, MTC-DTM, MSCHL
> Betreff:   Re: promoting dylan


> > - MacOSX: If availabe on Intel hardware, this might become (over 5 yeras
> or
> > so a big competitor to Windows. So, maybe, try to establish Dylan
> > as the premier programming language for MacOSX.

> The Gwydion Dylan Maintainers are working on getting our d2c Dylan
> compiler
> running on MacOS X and Darwin (the open-source core OS used under MacOS
> X).  [marc]  ...
>  So we're working on it. :-)

        [marc]
        But only when FO joins this plattform too, enought momentum will be
generated (hopefully) to
        motivate developers to switch from java to dylan, which is not easy
because of the many add-on libraries
        shipped with the jdk's nowadays (distribution, internationalization,
benas etc. etc.). Are there any
        plans to build a j-ffi for Dylan to use those resources?

Quote:
> > - Domain Specific Languages

> Do you have any references or examples for this? It sounds interesting.

        [marc]    
        Interesting, yes, but no big deal. Any set of macros written for
some specific
        domain create a domain-specific-language-extension to dylan. Depends
upon
        how much you (as domain-programmer) look behind and outside of this
set
        of macros.

Quote:
> > - Aspect oriented Programming:

> Again, do you have references / examples for this?

        [marc]  
        Take a look at http://www.aspectj.org for some very good slides
        documentation and examples (java though:-(

Quote:
> > (BTW, whats the best way to code before and after methods in Dylan?).

> Like before and after methods in Lisp? I don't fully remember the
> symantics.
> But I'm sure someone else will, especially if you post an example. :-)

        [marc]  
        Yes, like in CLOS. Dylan has no MOP so this might become difficult
to
        realize.

        As an example for AOP (and before and after methods) suppose you
want
        to temporarily add tracing to a set of methods.

        define protocol <<some-protocol>> (<<protocol>>)
            setters, getters, functions etc...
        end protocol <<some-protocol>>;

        define aspect <<some-tracing>> (<<aspect>>)
            slot log :: <stream>;
            before-all-methods-in  <<some-protocol>> do
                format(log, "entering %=\n", get-current-method-name());
            end;
            after-all-methods-in <<some-protocol>> do
                format(log, "leaving %=", get-current-method-name());
            end;
        end aspect <<some-tracing>>;

        [marc]  Any ideas?

Quote:
> - Rob.

        [marc]  
        marc

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> --

> MacOS wonderfulness for The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy Game.
> "Arthur bought the Apple anyway."-So Long & Thanks For All The Fish.



Sat, 09 Nov 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 promoting dylan

Quote:
>         But only when FO joins this plattform too, enought momentum will be
> generated (hopefully) to motivate developers to switch from java to dylan,
> which is not easy

I'd absolutely love to use Fun-Dev on MacOS X, I think it's the perfect
platform to make an impression and sell lots of software on, but I understand
why Fun-O are turning to the established and respected UNIX platform next.
Please don't discount Gwydion Dylan just because it's Open Source, you can use
OpenGL, MySQL, Sockets, the UNIX and Mac APIs, HTML/CGI and other industrial
strength, real-world APIs from Gwydion Dylan. More are being added all the
time, and on MacOS we now have an IDE to do this all in.

Quote:
> because of the many add-on libraries shipped with the jdk's nowadays
> (distribution, internationalization,
> benas etc. etc.). Are there any plans to build a j-ffi for Dylan to use those
> resources?

No. Most operating systems provide internationalization, XML, component
architectures, etc.  Java 2 is like a mini OS in this respect, with its own
system programming language. With Apple, GNU, the LINUX community and others
providing open source code that GD can use, it makes more sense for Dylan to
interface to these rather than to C++--.

- Rob.

--

MacOS wonderfulness for The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy Game.
"Arthur bought the Apple anyway."-So Long & Thanks For All The Fish.



Sat, 09 Nov 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 
 [ 6 post ] 

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