MacOSX and GD??? 
Author Message
 MacOSX and GD???

This is more of a curiosity post than anything else, but I was wondering
if people had been paying attention to Apple and their efforts with
MacOSX. It seems the core of their new system will be BSD based and the
underpinnings to this core are already available in the form of Darwin.
Has anyone looked into porting d2c to Darwin or MacOSX Server? Another
question has been with the new G4 machines expected to be released with
the new OS. These chips have AltiVec which some are saying will greatly
improve upon performance with regards to multimedia and math intensive
operations. Could gd be optimized to use AltiVec? Just some thoughts as
I was browsing through the Apple developer site.

Brad



Fri, 02 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 MacOSX and GD???

Since GD doesn't generate native code, any AltiVec optimizations would
have to be made in the gcc (egcs) backend. But even these won't be too
useful until we get limited vectors working.

With regards to MOSX and Darwin, it is certainly conceivable to see
Gwydion ported to this platform: they have a Unix (Mach) core and can
use the GNU toolchain.

I believe Andreas is playing with MOSX... <grin>

  -tre

--

http://www.tiac.net/users/tree



Fri, 02 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 MacOSX and GD???

Quote:

> Has anyone looked into porting d2c to Darwin or MacOSX Server? Another

Yes, me. Ended up with MacOS X eating my Linux partition, and me
losing my local patches to gd. I'll try it again when I have a backup
of my machine.

BTW: you must be the fifth or so person to ask for a MacOS X
port. Looks like user demand is there ;).

Quote:
> operations. Could gd be optimized to use AltiVec? Just some thoughts as

I seriously doubt that. AltiVec, as all the other "multimedia" opcodes
such as MMX and pals, requires hand-written assembler, which on the
other hand can be called from d2c.

Andreas

--
Reality is two's complement. See:
ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/hb/hbaker/hakmem/hacks.html#item154



Fri, 02 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 MacOSX and GD???


Quote:
> It is trivial to build MindyComp and Mindy as an MPW tool, I did it
> between r1 and r2 of the Mac Port but decided against it ( MPW is a
> dead loss for console IO in applications, CodeWarrior is much better
> ). I don't know about d2c, but assuming it doesn't try to fork or
> pipe anything ( :-) ), it should be doable in a finite amount of
> time.  There's an old port of gcc for MPW available or a couple of
> other C compilers available for MPW, to compile d2c's output.

For my part, I would much rather use MPW for working in Mindy and
MindyComp where I don't have to bother with AppleScript and such: I
found working with the existing Mac port quite cumbersome, though that
may have been lack of familiarity. I eventually gave up and rebooted
into LinuxPPC.

I was about to start going down the path of porting 2.2 to MPW for my
own edification anyway... I think it would be realistic to port the
d2c backend to a different compiler/assembler combo, and would be
beneficial anyway for the compiler's architecture.

A few years ago Pat Beard hosted mindycomp in the Symantec Project
Manager: we added a Dylan mode to the editor and I was going to add
rudimentry support for it in the static class browser but we never
finished. The runtime was linked in the project, so hitting Run would
execute the program. He showed this at WWDC running a QuickDraw 3D
program. Pretty cool. One could do a similar thing with CodeWarrior, I
suppose.

Quote:
> Once I get Mindy stable I intend to look at d2c, but with the
> consumer release of OS X less than a year away, it may be best just
> to wait...

MOSX is hardly MacOS, IMHO. I have yet to find a compelling reason to
install it.

        -tre

--

http://www.tiac.net/users/tree



Sat, 03 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 MacOSX and GD???

Having a d2c tool in MPW would be incredibly cool, IMHO. I have the
Apple Dylan TR and while it is a nice environment, the compiler doesn't
create fast applications. Mr. C seems to be about as good as it gets for
the MacOS and the combination of it and dylan would really attract some attention.

Brad

Quote:


> > It is trivial to build MindyComp and Mindy as an MPW tool, I did it
> > between r1 and r2 of the Mac Port but decided against it ( MPW is a
> > dead loss for console IO in applications, CodeWarrior is much better
> > ). I don't know about d2c, but assuming it doesn't try to fork or
> > pipe anything ( :-) ), it should be doable in a finite amount of
> > time.  There's an old port of gcc for MPW available or a couple of
> > other C compilers available for MPW, to compile d2c's output.

> For my part, I would much rather use MPW for working in Mindy and
> MindyComp where I don't have to bother with AppleScript and such: I
> found working with the existing Mac port quite cumbersome, though that
> may have been lack of familiarity. I eventually gave up and rebooted
> into LinuxPPC.

> I was about to start going down the path of porting 2.2 to MPW for my
> own edification anyway... I think it would be realistic to port the
> d2c backend to a different compiler/assembler combo, and would be
> beneficial anyway for the compiler's architecture.

> A few years ago Pat Beard hosted mindycomp in the Symantec Project
> Manager: we added a Dylan mode to the editor and I was going to add
> rudimentry support for it in the static class browser but we never
> finished. The runtime was linked in the project, so hitting Run would
> execute the program. He showed this at WWDC running a QuickDraw 3D
> program. Pretty cool. One could do a similar thing with CodeWarrior, I
> suppose.

> > Once I get Mindy stable I intend to look at d2c, but with the
> > consumer release of OS X less than a year away, it may be best just
> > to wait...

> MOSX is hardly MacOS, IMHO. I have yet to find a compelling reason to
> install it.

>         -tre

> --

> http://www.tiac.net/users/tree



Sat, 03 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 MacOSX and GD???

Quote:

> BTW: you must be the fifth or so person to ask for a MacOS X
> port. Looks like user demand is there ;).

If you're counting hands then please add mine to the count :-)

I'd also like to see MacOS 8.x with MPW, but that's considerably more work,
so I'm essentially resigned to using Linux and/or the BSD part of MacOS X.

Quote:
> > operations. Could gd be optimized to use AltiVec? Just some thoughts as

> I seriously doubt that. AltiVec, as all the other "multimedia" opcodes
> such as MMX and pals, requires hand-written assembler, which on the
> other hand can be called from d2c.

That's not entirely true.

First, there is a spec for adding AltiVec support to C compilers and both
Apple and Metrowerks have implemented it. It involves adding new primitive
datatypes to the language -- limited(<vector>, of: <single-float>, size:
4) and the same for 8-, 16- and 32-bit integers -- and supporting the
AltiVec operations on those datatypes.  What you write is a bunch of what
looks like function calls corresponding to individual AltiVec
instructions, but the compiler still does a lot of the grunt work for you:
allocating stack space, allocating registers, scheduling operations to
make best use of the available execution units etc.

There is nothing at all to stop any xxx2c compiler from exposing those
datatypes and operations and letting the C compiler deal with the rest.

Second, with Dylan, you could specialise some operations such as those
involving map() of \+, \-, \*, logand, logor etc, and reduce() of \+ on
limited vectors to automagically use AltiVec.

With conventional languages such as C, a large part of the problem with
vectorising code to use things such as AltiVec or MMX is trying to
decipher the programmer's intention out of a mess of loops and tests and
assigments, and prove that things don't have bad interactions.  In Dylan
the programmer can often express their intention much more directly.

-- Bruce



Sat, 03 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 MacOSX and GD???

Quote:

> I'd also like to see MacOS 8.x with MPW, but that's considerably more work,
> so I'm essentially resigned to using Linux and/or the BSD part of MacOS X.

It is trivial to build MindyComp and Mindy as an MPW tool, I did it
between r1 and r2 of the Mac Port but decided against it ( MPW is a dead
loss for console IO in applications, CodeWarrior is much better ). I
don't know about d2c, but assuming it doesn't try to fork or pipe
anything ( :-) ), it should be doable in a finite amount of time.
There's an old port of gcc for MPW available or a couple of other C
compilers available for MPW, to compile d2c's output.

Once I get Mindy stable I intend to look at d2c, but with the consumer
release of OS X less than a year away, it may be best just to wait...

- Rob.

__________________________________________________________________
                           __            __    _      __        

http://www.lostwax.com/  / /__/ _ \(_-</ __/  | |/ |/ / - `/\ \ /
                        /____/\___/___/\__/   |__/|__/\_,_//_\_\



Sat, 03 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 MacOSX and GD???
I'd also like to see an OSX port of d2c, but I'm in no huge hurry.

We've tried out OSX Server on a few machines and had fairly good luck with
the basic OS, but fairly poor luck with the blue box, so we're not ready to
run it full-time yet.

Also, performance and stability of the core OS doesn't seem to be that great
on non-supported machines (such as our 8600/200 or PowerBook G3 units) and
we can't buy any blue G3 units just now.

Paul

--
"If you forgive me my ferocity, I will forget your sweetness" - Blondie
Paul R. Potts - Technical Group Director - Health Media Research Lab



Sat, 03 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 MacOSX and GD???

Quote:

> For my part, I would much rather use MPW for working in Mindy and
> MindyComp where I don't have to bother with AppleScript and such: I
> found working with the existing Mac port quite cumbersome, though that
> may have been lack of familiarity. I eventually gave up and rebooted
> into LinuxPPC.

I'll add the MPW tool to the next release. I'm a big AppleScript fan and
I needed a quick way of working with more than one file at a time. :-)

Quote:
> A few years ago Pat Beard hosted mindycomp in the Symantec Project
> Manager: we added a Dylan mode to the editor and I was going to add
> rudimentry support for it in the static class browser but we never
> finished. The runtime was linked in the project, so hitting Run would
> execute the program. He showed this at WWDC running a QuickDraw 3D
> program. Pretty cool. One could do a similar thing with CodeWarrior, I
> suppose.

He actually did a CW port as well, Peter Hinely sent me a copy. It's for
a veeeery old version of CW, I'll look into making a version for the new
CW, the main obstacle is converting stuff that uses stdio. Since I've
built the compiler as a shared lib, and I know how to do the runtime as
a self-running document, this might be the best way of doing things. No
promises, though.

- Rob.

__________________________________________________________________
                           __            __    _      __        

http://www.lostwax.com/  / /__/ _ \(_-</ __/  | |/ |/ / - `/\ \ /
                        /____/\___/___/\__/   |__/|__/\_,_//_\_\



Sun, 04 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 
 [ 9 post ] 

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