Status of Dylan on MacOS X 
Author Message
 Status of Dylan on MacOS X

I've been wondering for some time what the status of (Gwydion) Dylan on
MacOS X is. It seems like the OS has settled down to a large extent with
the release of 10.1. Is there some stable, usable version that will work
on MacOS X 10.1?

In particular, it would seem to me desirable to make Gwydion Dylan
usable from within Project Builder, since this is a freely available
tool, well supported by Apple, and, of course, interfaces to GCC.

In any event, what is the status of a usable Dylan on MacOS X, excluding
CodeWarrior, which in my experience, is buggy as the day is long under
MacOS X (in addition to being a non-free tool in both senses of the word
"free.")

Raf

--

Raffael Cavallaro, Ph.D.



Tue, 06 Apr 2004 22:24:39 GMT  
 Status of Dylan on MacOS X

Quote:
> I've been wondering for some time what the status of (Gwydion) Dylan on
> MacOS X is. It seems like the OS has settled down to a large extent with
> the release of 10.1. Is there some stable, usable version that will work
> on MacOS X 10.1?

There's a full and current version of Gwydion Dylan available for MacOS X
from the usual ftp sites. See http://www.gwydiondylan.org/ . It seems pretty
stable and has a Carbon interface library available for it with some simple
GUI application demos. See http://www.robmyers.org/dylan/macosx/index.html
for some old screenshots.

You do need to install some of the GNU tools to replace the Apple ones
(automake, autoconf and libtool), especially for compiling the compiler.

It hasn't been tested on 10.1 yet to the best of my knowledge, but it should
work OK. I'm hoping 10.1 will fix the need to install the GNU tools (the
very latest GNU tools don't compile on 10.0.4). I'll test all this when my
copy of 10.1 arrives, hopefully next week.

I'm also working (slowly) on a Carbon DUIM.

Quote:
> In particular, it would seem to me desirable to make Gwydion Dylan
> usable from within Project Builder, since this is a freely available
> tool, well supported by Apple, and, of course, interfaces to GCC.

Some preliminary research was done on this. We need to find out how to make
a Project Builder plugin. My company has an Apple Developer account so this
should be doable.

Quote:
> In any event, what is the status of a usable Dylan on MacOS X, excluding
> CodeWarrior, which in my experience, is buggy as the day is long under
> MacOS X (in addition to being a non-free tool in both senses of the word
> "free.")

Gabor's CW plugin gives you graphical browsers for class and GF hierachies,
it's very cool and gives you the only other Dylan IDE available today. I'm
not a fan of Metrowerks at all, but the plugin is excellent.

- Rob.



Tue, 06 Apr 2004 23:24:05 GMT  
 Status of Dylan on MacOS X

Quote:

> You do need to install some of the GNU tools to replace the Apple ones
> (automake, autoconf and libtool), especially for compiling the compiler.

> It hasn't been tested on 10.1 yet to the best of my knowledge, but it
> should
> work OK. I'm hoping 10.1 will fix the need to install the GNU tools (the
> very latest GNU tools don't compile on 10.0.4). I'll test all this when
> my
> copy of 10.1 arrives, hopefully next week.

Last time I tried to install the current release, I tripped over this. I
remember being reluctant to replace the Apple versions of these tools
for fear that either:

1. it would break the Apple tool chain in some unforeseen way, making
the Apple Developer Tools unusable for compiling and installing other
open source software released for MacOS X.

2. Apple would release an update to their developer tools that would
overwrite these Gnu Tools, thus rendering the Dylan tool chain unusable.

So, I guess what I'm asking is: Is there, or will there soon be a
version of Gwydion Dlylan that works on a stock MacOS X 10.1, with the
Developer Tools as shipped by Apple, since this is what every other open
source software project will be targeting. Failing that, is there,  or
will there soon be a binary distribution that works under a stock MacOS
X?

Quote:
> Gabor's CW plugin gives you graphical browsers for class and GF
> hierachies,
> it's very cool and gives you the only other Dylan IDE available today.
> I'm
> not a fan of Metrowerks at all, but the plugin is excellent.

Yes, Gabor's work is excellent. Unfortunately, I've been burned by
Metrowerks way too many times to ever send them another dime, especially
now that the platform standard is  a set of tools shipped by Apple
themselves, free to anyone  who  wants them.

Raf



Wed, 07 Apr 2004 01:17:53 GMT  
 Status of Dylan on MacOS X

Quote:

> I've been wondering for some time what the status of (Gwydion) Dylan on
> MacOS X is. It seems like the OS has settled down to a large extent with
> the release of 10.1. Is there some stable, usable version that will work
> on MacOS X 10.1?

Gwydion Dylan has worked on OS X for about a year now.  It's just as
stable and usable there as it is anywhere else.

Quote:
> In particular, it would seem to me desirable to make Gwydion Dylan
> usable from within Project Builder, since this is a freely available
> tool, well supported by Apple, and, of course, interfaces to GCC.

Yes, that would be very nice.  Feel free to help!

-- Bruce



Wed, 07 Apr 2004 07:54:02 GMT  
 Status of Dylan on MacOS X

Quote:


> > I've been wondering for some time what the status of (Gwydion) Dylan on
> > MacOS X is. It seems like the OS has settled down to a large extent
> > with
> > the release of 10.1. Is there some stable, usable version that will
> > work
> > on MacOS X 10.1?

> There's a full and current version of Gwydion Dylan available for MacOS X
> from the usual ftp sites. See http://www.*-*-*.com/
> pretty
> stable and has a Carbon interface library available for it with some
> simple
> GUI application demos. See
> http://www.*-*-*.com/
> for some old screenshots.

> You do need to install some of the GNU tools to replace the Apple ones
> (automake, autoconf and libtool), especially for compiling the compiler.

You only need to install automake and allow for the fact that you need
to use "glibtool" not "libtool".

I know that initially I also installed autoconf and libtool but I'm
afraid that iinstalling the latter might well interfer with Apple's
functionality, since their "libtool" does something different.

Quote:
> It hasn't been tested on 10.1 yet to the best of my knowledge

I did a Mindy bootstrap using 10.1 on a {*filter*} G4/867 here yesterday.  
(4.5 hours, which is a tad slower than my Athlon 700 with Linux --
mostly I think because Apple's gcc is really slow)

-- Bruce



Wed, 07 Apr 2004 07:59:32 GMT  
 Status of Dylan on MacOS X

Quote:


> > You do need to install some of the GNU tools to replace the Apple ones
> > (automake, autoconf and libtool), especially for compiling the compiler.

> > It hasn't been tested on 10.1 yet to the best of my knowledge, but it
> > should
> > work OK. I'm hoping 10.1 will fix the need to install the GNU tools (the
> > very latest GNU tools don't compile on 10.0.4). I'll test all this when
> > my
> > copy of 10.1 arrives, hopefully next week.

> Last time I tried to install the current release, I tripped over this. I
> remember being reluctant to replace the Apple versions of these tools
> for fear that either:

> 1. it would break the Apple tool chain in some unforeseen way, making
> the Apple Developer Tools unusable for compiling and installing other
> open source software released for MacOS X.

I'm afraid of that as well.

Quote:
> 2. Apple would release an update to their developer tools that would
> overwrite these Gnu Tools, thus rendering the Dylan tool chain unusable.

Won't happen, as Apple stuff is in /usr/bin while stuff compiled by the
user goes into /usr/local/bin.

Quote:
> So, I guess what I'm asking is: Is there, or will there soon be a
> version of Gwydion Dlylan that works on a stock MacOS X 10.1, with the
> Developer Tools as shipped by Apple, since this is what every other open
> source software project will be targeting. Failing that, is there,  or
> will there soon be a binary distribution that works under a stock MacOS
> X?

You need automake, as OS X doesn't come with it at all.

I had to make one more change from what is in the cvs at the moment.  My
quick-hack change is:

diff -c -r1.30 Defaults.in
*** src/Defaults.in     2001/09/25 03:38:48     1.30
--- src/Defaults.in     2001/10/20 00:07:42
***************
*** 41,54 ****




  # INSTALL_DATA and INSTALL_PROGRAM don't do what I would expect.  In
  # particular, INSTALL_PROGRAM doesn't force executability.

  if ($shared) {


  } else {


--- 41,54 ----



! $LIBTOOL = "glibtool";

  # INSTALL_DATA and INSTALL_PROGRAM don't do what I would expect.  In
  # particular, INSTALL_PROGRAM doesn't force executability.

  if ($shared) {


  } else {


I see from the cvs log of this file that Rob had *twice* before made a
similar (but less hacky) change, and it has been twice backed out by
other members of the d2c team.


in OS X 10.1 if you've only installed automake.  I suspect that Apple's
autoconf also needs enhancement because doing ./configure prints up the
following error messages:

You should update you 'aclocal.m4' by running aclocal
autoconf: Undefined macros:
configure.in:203:AC_PROG_LIBTOOL

I don't know anywhere near enough about autoconf to know how to fix
this.  Certainly just running "aclocal" does help.

However, with the above patch, and the missing automake installed (I
used 1.4-P5 from ftp.gnu.org) the current Gwydion source in cvs builds
and runs fine on 10.1.

-- Bruce



Wed, 07 Apr 2004 08:18:29 GMT  
 Status of Dylan on MacOS X

Quote:

>> 2. Apple would release an update to their developer tools that would
>> overwrite these Gnu Tools, thus rendering the Dylan tool chain
>> unusable.

> Won't happen, as Apple stuff is in /usr/bin while stuff compiled by the
> user goes into /usr/local/bin.

This is good to know. Thanks for your patch and installation tips - I'll
give it a go this week end.

Raf



Wed, 07 Apr 2004 11:31:14 GMT  
 Status of Dylan on MacOS X

Quote:


> >> 2. Apple would release an update to their developer tools that would
> >> overwrite these Gnu Tools, thus rendering the Dylan tool chain
> >> unusable.

> > Won't happen, as Apple stuff is in /usr/bin while stuff compiled by the
> > user goes into /usr/local/bin.

> This is good to know. Thanks for your patch and installation tips - I'll
> give it a go this week end.

Y're welcome.

I also like to not build all the {*filter*}that been included in the default
makefile.

If I'm doing a Mindy bootstrap -- I like to every so often to make sure
it works, and it takes abot 4.5 hours on the G4 (vs 24 hours on my
G3/266 PowerBook) -- then I use:

  cd src
  ./autogen.sh --enable-mindy-bootstrap --enable-duim=no --disable-shared

After that's done I rebuild d2c using the new d2c by using:

  cd src
  ./autogen.sh --disable-mindy --enable-duim=no --disable-shared
  cd d2c
  make
  cd ../test
  make

This saves building the "tools", "common", "duim" and "platform"
directories every time I play with the compiler.

Actually, Rob's carbon stuff in "platform" doesn't seem to compile for
me, due to a conflict between the definition of "bool" used by Carbon
and d2c (d2c uses char, Carbon uses int).  I'm not yet doing Carbon
programming using d2c so I haven't worried about this...

How do you resolve this, Rob?

-- Bruce



Wed, 07 Apr 2004 11:51:15 GMT  
 Status of Dylan on MacOS X

Quote:

> > It hasn't been tested on 10.1 yet to the best of my knowledge

> I did a Mindy bootstrap using 10.1 on a {*filter*} G4/867 here yesterday.  
> (4.5 hours, which is a tad slower than my Athlon 700 with Linux --
> mostly I think because Apple's gcc is really slow)

Whoops!

Just did a Mindy bootstrap on the Athlon 700 from the latest sources.  
It took 5.5 hours, so it's 22% slower than the G4.  Which happens to be
almost exactly in line with the clock speed ratios.

The Athlon is definitely faster for small compiles, though, at 9 seconds
to compile "hello world", vs 11.5 for the G4.

I'm pretty sure it's in the C compiler speed, as the G4 takes 7.2
seconds in d2c itself, and then another 4.3 seconds in the C compiler
and linker.

A year or so ago I was using a G4/400 with LinuxPPC and it took around
12 seconds for HelloWorld -- and d2c was slower then.

-- Bruce



Thu, 08 Apr 2004 19:03:23 GMT  
 Status of Dylan on MacOS X
Bruce (et.al.)

The error from ./configure relating to AC_PROG_LIBTOOL is due to the fact that
although MacOSX had glibtool the related (g)libtool.m4 which is used by
aclocal/autoconf to produce a local m4 file is not installed in any of the
relevant directories in the system. To get around this I got a copy of the GNU
libtool source and just copied the m4 file to the relevant directory. Running
aclocal now will find the definition of AC_PROG_LIBTOOL and ./configure will be
a happy bunny.

Hope this helps

Gareth Baker

(I'm about to try a bootstrap of the latest tarball on my 10.1 system - I'll
report on any problems - or hopefully lack of them).

PS folks how if c-ffi coming on? I've been holding off doing any large scale had
coding melange interfaces in the hope that c-ffi would come along and make life
a bit easier.

Quote:




> > > You do need to install some of the GNU tools to replace the Apple ones
> > > (automake, autoconf and libtool), especially for compiling the compiler.

> > > It hasn't been tested on 10.1 yet to the best of my knowledge, but it
> > > should
> > > work OK. I'm hoping 10.1 will fix the need to install the GNU tools (the
> > > very latest GNU tools don't compile on 10.0.4). I'll test all this when
> > > my
> > > copy of 10.1 arrives, hopefully next week.

> > Last time I tried to install the current release, I tripped over this. I
> > remember being reluctant to replace the Apple versions of these tools
> > for fear that either:

> > 1. it would break the Apple tool chain in some unforeseen way, making
> > the Apple Developer Tools unusable for compiling and installing other
> > open source software released for MacOS X.

> I'm afraid of that as well.

> > 2. Apple would release an update to their developer tools that would
> > overwrite these Gnu Tools, thus rendering the Dylan tool chain unusable.

> Won't happen, as Apple stuff is in /usr/bin while stuff compiled by the
> user goes into /usr/local/bin.

> > So, I guess what I'm asking is: Is there, or will there soon be a
> > version of Gwydion Dlylan that works on a stock MacOS X 10.1, with the
> > Developer Tools as shipped by Apple, since this is what every other open
> > source software project will be targeting. Failing that, is there,  or
> > will there soon be a binary distribution that works under a stock MacOS
> > X?

> You need automake, as OS X doesn't come with it at all.

> I had to make one more change from what is in the cvs at the moment.  My
> quick-hack change is:

> diff -c -r1.30 Defaults.in
> *** src/Defaults.in     2001/09/25 03:38:48     1.30
> --- src/Defaults.in     2001/10/20 00:07:42
> ***************
> *** 41,54 ****




>   # INSTALL_DATA and INSTALL_PROGRAM don't do what I would expect.  In
>   # particular, INSTALL_PROGRAM doesn't force executability.

>   if ($shared) {


>   } else {


> --- 41,54 ----



> ! $LIBTOOL = "glibtool";

>   # INSTALL_DATA and INSTALL_PROGRAM don't do what I would expect.  In
>   # particular, INSTALL_PROGRAM doesn't force executability.

>   if ($shared) {


>   } else {


> I see from the cvs log of this file that Rob had *twice* before made a
> similar (but less hacky) change, and it has been twice backed out by
> other members of the d2c team.


> in OS X 10.1 if you've only installed automake.  I suspect that Apple's
> autoconf also needs enhancement because doing ./configure prints up the
> following error messages:

> You should update you 'aclocal.m4' by running aclocal
> autoconf: Undefined macros:
> configure.in:203:AC_PROG_LIBTOOL

> I don't know anywhere near enough about autoconf to know how to fix
> this.  Certainly just running "aclocal" does help.

> However, with the above patch, and the missing automake installed (I
> used 1.4-P5 from ftp.gnu.org) the current Gwydion source in cvs builds
> and runs fine on 10.1.

> -- Bruce



Fri, 09 Apr 2004 03:55:30 GMT  
 Status of Dylan on MacOS X

Quote:

> Bruce (et.al.)

> The error from ./configure relating to AC_PROG_LIBTOOL is due to
> the fact that although MacOSX had glibtool the related (g)libtool.m4
> which is used by aclocal/autoconf to produce a local m4 file is not
> installed in any of the relevant directories in the system. To get
> around this I got a copy of the GNU libtool source and just copied
> the m4 file to the relevant directory.

Can you be just a *little* more specific? Copy libtool.m4 to which
directory?

-- Bruce
   I hate it when I have to use tools I don't understand



Fri, 09 Apr 2004 06:41:55 GMT  
 Status of Dylan on MacOS X

Quote:

> Actually, Rob's carbon stuff in "platform" doesn't seem to compile for
> me, due to a conflict between the definition of "bool" used by Carbon
> and d2c (d2c uses char, Carbon uses int).  I'm not yet doing Carbon
> programming using d2c so I haven't worried about this...

> How do you resolve this, Rob?

I don't know, I haven't encountered this. A c-expr(void:, "#undef
bool"); in the right place might do it, or we could route the Carbon.h
header through an intermediate header before c-include'ing it.

I'm a bit behind with Dylan after a work milestone last week, Ill catch
up when I get MacOSX 10.1 , and I'll take a look at the Carbon stuff
then.

- Rob.



Fri, 09 Apr 2004 17:52:06 GMT  
 Status of Dylan on MacOS X
Sorry for the bevity. I think you have to put it in:

/usr/local/share/aclocal

and I think you may need the assiciated ltdl.m4 file which should be in
with the libtool source.

running aclocal --verbose in the gd source directory should confirm that
it has found the definition of AC_PROG_LIBTOOL.

Regards
Gareth Baker


Quote:


> > Bruce (et.al.)

> > The error from ./configure relating to AC_PROG_LIBTOOL is due to
> > the fact that although MacOSX had glibtool the related (g)libtool.m4
> > which is used by aclocal/autoconf to produce a local m4 file is not
> > installed in any of the relevant directories in the system. To get
> > around this I got a copy of the GNU libtool source and just copied
> > the m4 file to the relevant directory.

> Can you be just a *little* more specific? Copy libtool.m4 to which
> directory?

> -- Bruce
>    I hate it when I have to use tools I don't understand



Fri, 09 Apr 2004 17:49:18 GMT  
 Status of Dylan on MacOS X
That should probably be

c-decl("#undef bool");
c-decl("#define bool char");

This way the output does appear _before_ a C function,
not inside it.

        Gabor


Quote:
> On Saturday, October 20, 2001, at 05:00  am, Bruce

> > Actually, Rob's carbon stuff in "platform" doesn't
> seem to compile for
> > me, due to a conflict between the definition of
> "bool" used by Carbon
> > and d2c (d2c uses char, Carbon uses int).  I'm not
> yet doing Carbon
> > programming using d2c so I haven't worried about
> this...

> > How do you resolve this, Rob?

> I don't know, I haven't encountered this. A
> c-expr(void:, "#undef
> bool"); in the right place might do it, or we could
> route the Carbon.h
> header through an intermediate header before
> c-include'ing it.

> I'm a bit behind with Dylan after a work milestone
> last week, Ill catch
> up when I get MacOSX 10.1 , and I'll take a look at
> the Carbon stuff
> then.

> - Rob.

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Fri, 09 Apr 2004 18:59:04 GMT  
 Status of Dylan on MacOS X

Quote:
> PS folks how if c-ffi coming on? I've been holding off doing any
> large scale had coding melange interfaces in the hope that c-ffi
> would come along and make life a bit easier.

C-FFI is coming along (slowly), but it is intended to bring
compatibility, not ease-of-use.  It is in fact a rather low-level
interface, though it's a bit easier to use than the low-level
interface we have now.  The high-level interface that uses C-FFI as
its low-level base, when it's complete, will still look a lot like
melange.

-Peter-



Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:42:30 GMT  
 
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