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What? And let Dylan die completely? Well, okay, I guess it's hard to
stop that inevitability now.

Well - mailing lists don't take up terribly many resources when they're
running smoothly, especially low-traffic ones such as this. I'm actually
surprised that the address at cambridge.apple.com still works, since my
DNS no longer knows about www.cambridge.apple.com, suggesting that it
has gone the way of the dodo bird.

Quote:
>----------

>Sent:       Thursday, October 24, 1996 3:18 AM

>Subject:    unsubscribe?


>> You're probably trying to unsubscribe by mailing majordomo or
>> info-dylan-request at cambridge.apple.com. However, the lists have moved
>> to harlequin.co.uk, so you should send unsubscribe requests to

>> the move on this list)

>Yes, the list has moved but the 'administration' is different, or
>so I gather.
>I too have unsuccesfully tried to unsubscribe from this list (NOT from
>the Harlequin one!) to unclutter my mailbox.

>Since this list does not serve any practical purpose anymore, I propose
>to simply shut it down.
>BTW, any human administrator listening?

>  Enrico



Mon, 12 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
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In article <comp.lang.dylan.c=US%a=_%p=Brightware

Quote:
> What? And let Dylan die completely? Well, okay, I guess it's hard to
> stop that inevitability now.

Why should Dylan die? It looks to me like it's stronger now
than it's ever been. A mailing list has nothing to do with it,
unless you mean the one for implementors. That should be easy
fix: just set up a new list, perhaps at a different site.
--
<URL:http://www.enrapture.com/cybes/> You can never browse enough
Future generations are relying on us
It's a world we've made - Incubus
We're living on a knife edge, looking for the ground -- Hawkwind


Tue, 13 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
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Quote:

> What? And let Dylan die completely? Well, okay, I guess it's hard to
> stop that inevitability now.

I don't know why you say that.  From where I sit,
interest in Dylan is on the increase. One of my
clients, an analyst at a Fortune 100 bank, asked me
this morning if I knew when Harlequin's DylanWorks
would be out.  I just got back from the bookstore,
where I saw "Dylan Programming: an Object-Oriented
Dynamic Language" displayed prominently on the
shelf next to the Delphi section. Nice-looking
book, too.  Apple may have abandoned Dylan, but I
don't think that matters much in the overall scheme
of things.  Actually I'm not sure it didn't help.


Tue, 13 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
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Quote:

>Why should Dylan die? It looks to me like it's stronger now
>than it's ever been.

Would you like to comment on why it looks like so to you ?

muzo




Tue, 13 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
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Quote:

> >Why should Dylan die? It looks to me like it's stronger now
> >than it's ever been.

> Would you like to comment on why it looks like so to you ?

It's very simple. There are (at least) two implementations in
development, and the supported platforms include Unix and NT.
That should keep a fair number of people happy.

It implies that some people are taking Dylan seriously enough to
commit the resources required to create what will very likely be
"industrial strength" implementations. It seems that DylanWorks
will be some decent Win32 support, being able to create OLE servers.
That should make it a more likely candidate as an alternative
to C++, at least for Win32 platforms. I can't comment on Unix.
--
<URL:http://www.enrapture.com/cybes/> You can never browse enough
Future generations are relying on us
It's a world we've made - Incubus
We're living on a knife edge, looking for the ground -- Hawkwind



Wed, 14 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
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Quote:

>It implies that some people are taking Dylan seriously enough to
>commit the resources required to create what will very likely be
>"industrial strength" implementations. It seems that DylanWorks
>will be some decent Win32 support, being able to create OLE servers.
>That should make it a more likely candidate as an alternative
>to C++, at least for Win32 platforms. I can't comment on Unix.

But how many alternatives to C++ do we need ? Don't forget that mindshare and
training time/dollars are also important for a new language and from where I
stand, it looks like Java is getting both (not that I am interested in Java).I
think Dylan had a chance but I am afraid it might be too late. Java is already a
language for developing full applications (at least on Windows) and C++ tools are
getting better every day.

muzo




Thu, 15 Apr 1999 02:00:00 GMT  
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Quote:
> But how many alternatives to C++ do we need ? Don't forget that mindshare and
> training time/dollars are also important for a new language and from where I
> stand, it looks like Java is getting both (not that I am interested in Java).I
> think Dylan had a chance but I am afraid it might be too late. Java is already a> language for developing full applications (at least on Windows) and C++ tools
>  are
> getting better every day.

Just remember that to some of us, C++ is an alternative to whatever
we're already using. Your argument starts by putting C++ first, and
everything else second. Why not take a more objective look?
--
<URL:http://www.enrapture.com/cybes/> You can never browse enough
Future generations are relying on us
It's a world we've made - Incubus
We're living on a knife edge, looking for the ground -- Hawkwind


Fri, 16 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
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Quote:
>----------
>From:

>Sent:       Friday, October 25, 1996 3:29 AM

>Subject:    RE: unsubscribe?

>In article <comp.lang.dylan.c=US%a=_%p=Brightware

>> What? And let Dylan die completely? Well, okay, I guess it's hard to
>> stop that inevitability now.

>Why should Dylan die? It looks to me like it's stronger now
>than it's ever been. A mailing list has nothing to do with it,
>unless you mean the one for implementors. That should be easy
>fix: just set up a new list, perhaps at a different site.

Perhaps you'd care to share the reasons you think so? From my point of
view, Dylan has disappeared completely. www.cambridge.apple.com is gone.
No one has heard a word out of the Gwydion group in ages. No one is
talking about Dylan in magazines these days, and there are no new
implementations available.

I don't want Dylan to die, I want it to take over the world, but I don't
see how that's possible anymore. Apple should have gotten something out
there *far* eariler than they did, and they should *not* have focused on
an innovative environment the way the did. The TR is a wonderful
environment, but it's completely unusable unless you have a high-end
machine.

Not only that, but it delivers on none of the promises of Dylan. The
part of Dylan that was going to sell it to the C++ breathing masses was
the ability to have a dynamic development environment and still be able
to compile statically for delivery and compete with C++ in
size/performance. Apple Dylan delivers a slow, big development
environment and slow big apps. Not the way to sell the world.

If they'd concentrated instead on an optimizing compiler and gotten it
out there before Java hit, we'd be in a very different position today.

If I'm wrong, please prove me so.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
>Adam



Fri, 16 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
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Quote:
>----------

>But how many alternatives to C++ do we need ? Don't forget that mindshare and
>training time/dollars are also important for a new language and from where I
>stand, it looks like Java is getting both (not that I am interested in
>Java).I
>think Dylan had a chance but I am afraid it might be too late. Java is
>already a
>language for developing full applications (at least on Windows) and C++ tools
>are
>getting better every day.

>muzo

Well, C++ environments may be getting better, but there's only so far
that you can go with a language that is fundamentally broken. Witness
how the Apple Dylan environment is generations ahead of any C++
environment around, and C++ has been around in one form or another for a
decade!

And Java really is not yet a language for developing real applications.
The AWT is pathetically primitive, the performance is 30-40 times slower
than C++, and the tools are not there. I could go on, but I'd be
straying dangerously close to ranting territory... :-)

Adam



Sat, 17 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
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Quote:
>If they'd concentrated instead on an optimizing compiler and gotten it
>out there before Java hit, we'd be in a very different position today.

I don't want to start a flame war, but Java is still a toy:

[From < http://www.*-*-*.com/ ;]

"The most notable discovery in our testing was the inability of the Java
environments to handle very large data sets. When we began developing
our tests, we tried generating very large arrays that often contained
tens of thousands of elements. We didn't expect a problem there, since
every Java VM is written in 32-bit code (meaning that there should be no
artificial constraints on data set size, as there sometimes are in
16-bit code). Better yet, Java itself is supposed to handle the{*filter*}
details of memory management.

"But we found that you can't take Java's memory management for granted.
We ultimately had to scale back our arrays dramatically-limiting each to
several hundred items-in order for them to work with the entire set of
Java environments we tested. We also found that some Java garbage
collectors (which collect and consolidate deallocated memory) had bugs
that could crash the Java VM. The garbage collectors sometimes failed to
collect items-fonts, for example-that we allocated and then implicitly
de-allocated by letting them go out of scope. (A variable "goes out of
scope" when the program leaves the context in which the variable's
definition is valid.)"

[End quote]

I don't expect any of the commercial releases of Dylan to be this pathetic
-- but it takes time to make quality software.  If anything, I expect Java
will give dynamic GC-ed languages a black-eye because it is over-hyped and
under-engineered and will leave more than just the PC benchmarker
disappointed (or maybe not, perhaps their alternative is even poorer).



Sat, 17 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
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In article <comp.lang.dylan.c=US%a=_%p=Brightware

Quote:
> Perhaps you'd care to share the reasons you think so? From my point of
> view, Dylan has disappeared completely. www.cambridge.apple.com is gone.
> No one has heard a word out of the Gwydion group in ages. No one is
> talking about Dylan in magazines these days, and there are no new
> implementations available.

I waited years for a Smalltalk implementation that I could use, and
even longer for a machine that could run it. From my point of view,
I can easily wait a few years for Dylan implementations. Not everyone
can afford to wait, but since so many people are currently "committed"
to C++, I'm not sure this is a big deal.

The only real question for me is whether CMU and Harlequin can wait.
It appears that Apple couldn't wait, which is unfortunate, but that
needn't kill Dylan.

Quote:
> I don't want Dylan to die, I want it to take over the world, but I don't
> see how that's possible anymore. Apple should have gotten something out
> there *far* eariler than they did, and they should *not* have focused on
> an innovative environment the way the did. The TR is a wonderful
> environment, but it's completely unusable unless you have a high-end
> machine.

Apple are not the only company producing Dylan implementations.
If they were, then I'd share your concern. I try to take a long
term view, typically 10 years ahead, as I often have to wait that
long before I aquire the tools I'm interested in. I know it's
frustrating, but if Dylan _does_ die, then perhaps it wasn't "good"
enough. However, I'm not going to prejudge its worth simply coz
I have to wait for it!

Quote:
> Not only that, but it delivers on none of the promises of Dylan. The
> part of Dylan that was going to sell it to the C++ breathing masses was
> the ability to have a dynamic development environment and still be able
> to compile statically for delivery and compete with C++ in
> size/performance. Apple Dylan delivers a slow, big development
> environment and slow big apps. Not the way to sell the world.

Apple again. <sigh> Forget Apple. They certainly appear to have
forgotten Dylan. Perhaps Harlequin or CMU will support the Mac.

Quote:
> If they'd concentrated instead on an optimizing compiler and gotten it
> out there before Java hit, we'd be in a very different position today.

Perhaps. Who could have predicted the success of Java? Nobody.
I'm sure it was a brilliant gamble, and it payed off. After all,
people are saying that Apple have dumped Dylan for Java, so it
must've worked. So what? It only means that Java is currently
more successful, and that's means nothing at all today.

In a few years, who knows?

Quote:
> If I'm wrong, please prove me so.

Only time can prove that. Be patient grasshopper. ;-)
--
<URL:http://www.enrapture.com/cybes/> You can never browse enough
Future generations are relying on us
It's a world we've made - Incubus
We're living on a knife edge, looking for the ground -- Hawkwind


Sat, 17 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 unsubscribe?


Quote:

>In article <comp.lang.dylan.c=US%a=_%p=Brightware

>> Perhaps you'd care to share the reasons you think so? From my point of
>> view, Dylan has disappeared completely. www.cambridge.apple.com is gone.

                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   Hmmm, that's curious because my web browser is pointing
   right that site right now in another window on my Xterminal.
   Or is it a {*filter*}??? ;-)   The DNS was screwed up off and on
   over the last week. At one point I could get to it from one machine
   here in the college but not from another ( the two had different routers,
   but still... ).  Welcome to the wonderful world of the internet '96.

Quote:
>> No one has heard a word out of the Gwydion group in ages.
>>>    No one is
>> talking about Dylan in magazines these days,

                          ^^^^^^^^^-- Well at OOPSLA '96 Moon et. al.
presented a technical paper on the superclass
linearation scheme used by Dylan.... ooooohhh you mean PC World and that
ilk.  Recyclers of press releases. Full of wonderful reporters with
deep insight into what would make for a useful programming language.

Sarcasm aside, there is nothing in the magazines because there isn't anything
new specifically to report.... at the moment.  If there was, and it wasn't
being "report" then folks could rightfully "complain".

Quote:
>> Not only that, but it delivers on none of the promises of Dylan. The
>> part of Dylan that was going to sell it to the C++ breathing masses was
>> the ability to have a dynamic development environment and still be able
>> to compile statically for delivery and compete with C++ in
>> size/performance. Apple Dylan delivers a slow, big development
>> environment and slow big apps. Not the way to sell the world.

   To be fair that "TR" after "Apple Dylan" is significant. It is not a
   finished product, let alone tweaked for speed/space.  I wonder how big
   bloated microsoft's delevloper's studio environment was in Alpha/Beta
   production load up the de{*filter*}, the compiler, the editor, the browser,
   etc. etc.  and that all runs in a "small" memory footprint. Yeah right.
   Or start Metrowerks Codewarrior, Java compiler, the de{*filter*}, the browser,
   etc.

   Furthermore, "big slow" apps isn't exactly keeping folks from Java world.

Quote:
>> If they'd concentrated instead on an optimizing compiler and gotten it
>> out there before Java hit, we'd be in a very different position today.

   But that is exactly what sun did NOT do. Perhaps you can make an argument
   that Apple should have done what CMU did and released "FreeDylan" ( a
   mindy like construct or perhaps a Marlias like construct. )
   If they'd had leveraged passing out the free documentation over the web and
   given away a free implementations... then...   It still wouldn't have the
   "hype factor" of Java for lack of the internet "tie in".

  [ to be fair there are very many widely available ANSI Common Lisp
    implemenations out there. so given away the prototype "as is" probably
    won't have worked so well. And the whole syntax change thing...
    would have , could have , should have... ]

   Java still hasn't proven it is a viable replacement for C++ yet....
   java is popular far more for the VM and "security" than for the language
   itself.

Quote:
>people are saying that Apple have dumped Dylan for Java, so it
>must've worked. So what? It only means that Java is currently
>more successful, and that's means nothing at all today.

  Apple dumped Dylan because they couldn't afford it. They probably
  can't afford Java either... but doing Java development is a magical
  construct. Nobody is making any money doing it, but everyone does it anyway.
  [ I'd wager the only folks making significant profit, from a cash flow
    perspective, are book publishers and authors. That's not to say
    that you can't attract millions in investment dollars. So by doing it
    so you have enough money to paid the light bill et. al., but bottom
    line everyone hopes this will make big time money in the future.  ]

--
Lyman S. Taylor           Comment by a professor observing two students

                                "That's the trouble with graduate students.
                                 Every couple of days, they fall asleep."



Sun, 18 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 unsubscribe?

Quote:



> > But how many alternatives to C++ do we need ? Don't forget that mindshare and
> > training time/dollars are also important for a new language and from where I
> > stand, it looks like Java is getting both (not that I am interested in Java).I
> > think Dylan had a chance but I am afraid it might be too late. Java is already a> language for developing full applications (at least on Windows) and C++ tools
> >  are
> > getting better every day.

People reading this thread might be interested in the 3rd edition of my
C++ Critique as it contains comparisons to Java and Eiffel. You can
load it from the following sites:

Browser addresses:

ftp://ftp.brown.edu/pub/c++/C++-Critique-3ed.PS
http://www.math.tau.ac.il/~laden/Oberon/bib-full.html#LanguageCompari...
ftp://ftp.inria.fr/doc/lang/cpp.crit.ps.gz
http://www.lirmm.fr/~w3arc/fr/groupe-de-travail/cpp/cpp.crit.ps.gz
http://www.csd.uu.se/~alexb/study/cppv3.ps.gz        -- Preferred
GZIPped
http://www.csd.uu.se/~alexb/study/cppv3.ps.Z       -- Only if you can't
unzip

ftp details:

U.S East Brown University:

      Machine:       ftp.brown.edu
      Directory:     /pub/c++
      File:          C++-Critique-3ed.PS
      Browser:   ftp://ftp.brown.edu/pub/c++/C++-Critique-3ed.PS

U.S West Indiana University:    

      Hours:         After 6pm Eastern US Please
      Machine:       moose.cs.indiana.edu
      IP #           129.79.254.191
      Directory:     pub
      GZIP:        ftp://ftp.cs.indiana.edu/pub/cpp.crit/cppv3.ps.gz
      Compressed:  ftp://ftp.cs.indiana.edu/pub/cpp.crit/cppv3.ps.Z

France/Europe IRISA/CNRS:

      Machine:       irisa.irisa.fr
      IP #           131.254.254.2
      Directory:     pub/c++_critique
      GZIPPed:   cppv3.ps.gs   (456K)
      Compressed cppv3.ps.Z  (535K)
      Browser:  
ftp://ftp.irisa.fr/pub/c++_critique/cppv3.ps.gs          -- GZIPped
456K
      Browser:  
ftp://ftp.irisa.fr/pub/c++_critique/cppv3.ps.Z          --  Unix
compressed  535K



Fri, 23 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 unsubscribe?

[snip]

Quote:
> And Java really is not yet a language for developing real applications.
> The AWT is pathetically primitive, the performance is 30-40 times slower
> than C++, and the tools are not there. I could go on, but I'd be
> straying dangerously close to ranting territory... :-)

The performance is actually around 0.5 - 1.0 times slower
(i.e. execution times of 1.5 to 2.0 times as long) on a decent Java
VM with a just-in-time compiler.  And on a Java chip, it's faster.
Lots of the performance loss is because of things like
bounds-checking; the point, after all, isn't to do something quickly
-- it's to do something *correct* quickly.

This is, of course, ignoring the use of threads.  Java provides built-in
support for multi-threading, making it much easier to write (correct)
multi-threaded programs.  This, in turn, makes it more likely that a given
project will actually incorporate multi-threading if it's written in Java
than if it's written in C++.

Multi-threading can improve not just the perceived performance of an application
(e.g. by responding quickly to user-interface events), but (on multiprocessor
systems) the net performance as well.

Ob. Dylan: "Like a crocodile, ravaged in the corn..."

--

When you have the benefit of numbers, *never* pair off or go it alone.
  -- from "A Horror Movie Character's Survival Guide"
     http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/b.rosenberg/stuff/horror.html



Tue, 27 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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