Any UK Employers here? 
Author Message
 Any UK Employers here?

Quote:

> I am an analyst/programmer who has worked with Clipper from 1989 to
> 1997.

Ooo, you started the same year as me. :-)

Quote:
> However there is more to me than just knowledge of a programming language
> and what irritates me is that other people (potential employers,
> recruitment agencies etc) don't seem to realise this. These people don't
> realise that analysis, design and communication skills are far more
> important than knowledge of that actual programming language used - after
> all, simple programming questions can be answered by looking in the manual
> or talking to a colleague. I am more than capable of learning another
> language; I managed to learn Clipper through asking questions and
> debugging other people's code - I've never been on a Clipper training
> course in my life.

Amen. I find it most frustrating and short sighted that most people in the
industry these days appear to be interested only in "XYZ programmers". It
appears to be forgotten that programming is an art and a skill in it's own
right. Even worse, you get programmers who say "I'm a Clipper programmer" or
"I'm a Windoze programmer" or "I'm a Visual Basic" programmer without
realising that what they are really saying is "I'm not much of a programmer
but I do know how to act like part of a code factory using this specific
tool". It's like saying "I'm a Black And Decker gardener".

Quote:
> One of the major job-hunting problems that we face is that my wife and I
> wish to relocate from London to Manchester for various (personal) reasons
> and I have been trying to look for a suitable programming position in the
> North West since last November.

Have you tried using something like JobServe ( http://www.*-*-*.com/ )?
I've seen a number of Northern based Clipper oriented positions on there in
the last few months. In fact, there is one right now:

 Vacancy:    Delphi/Windows Programmer
 Skills:     Transformation of DOS applications to 32 bit Windows 95 &
             NT. Minimum 1 year's Borland delphi 3. Knowledge of Clipper
             useful.
 Location:   Bury/Manchester
 Agency:     Tescom People in Testing
 Contact:    Jan
 Telephone:  0161 236 9055
 Fax:        0161 773 6214

Sounds like the sort of thing you are looking for. I count around 90
positions which mention Manchester in the location (this is *all* positions,
not just Clipper oriented).

Quote:
> So far I have had no luck, so recently I've also decided to broaden my
> search by looking for contract work as well as permanent, and we are
> prepared to stay in the South East for another year or so if contract work
> proves to be lucrative enough.

Again, try JobServe, they list permanent and contract positions.

Hope this helps.

CC to poster.

--
Take a look in Hagbard's World: |     w3ng - The WWW Norton Guide reader.
http://www.*-*-*.com/ |  ng2html - The NG to HTML converter.
http://www.*-*-*.com/ |       eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
Free software, including........|   dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.



Fri, 24 Nov 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Any UK Employers here?


Quote:


> > I am an analyst/programmer who has worked with Clipper from 1989 to
> > 1997.
> Ooo, you started the same year as me. :-)

That's because...
.. it is you !
(Using aliases now are we Dave ? :)

Quote:
> Amen. I find it most frustrating and short sighted that most people in the
> industry these days appear to be interested only in "XYZ programmers". It

That's only partly 'short sighted' if you read it to mean;
'universal programmers/analysts with a proven experience using tool XYZ'.

Quote:
> realising that what they are really saying is "I'm not much of a programmer
> but I do know how to act like part of a code factory using this specific

Coder is the word.

Quote:
> I've seen a number of Northern based Clipper oriented positions on there in
> the last few months. In fact, there is one right now:

The main point being; t's Clipper orientated.
The fact that they ask for:

Quote:
>  Vacancy:    Delphi/Windows Programmer
>  Skills:     Transformation of DOS applications to 32 bit Windows 95 &
>              NT. Minimum 1 year's Borland Delphi 3. Knowledge of Clipper
>              useful.

doesn't mean that you shouldn't even try to apply for such a job since your
experience doesn't fully cover what they are asking for.
Specially with the current tight market situation companies are more and more
willing to invest in your training.

Anne.



Fri, 24 Nov 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Any UK Employers here?

Quote:




> > > I am an analyst/programmer who has worked with Clipper from 1989 to
> > > 1997.

> > Ooo, you started the same year as me. :-)

> That's because...  .. it is you !  (Using aliases now are we Dave ? :)

It's the only way you can have a conversation with yourself and still appear
to be sane (working from home does get to you in the end... <g>).

Quote:
> > Amen. I find it most frustrating and short sighted that most people in
> > the industry these days appear to be interested only in "XYZ
> > programmers". It

> That's only partly 'short sighted' if you read it to mean; 'universal
> programmers/analysts with a proven experience using tool XYZ'.

Oh, sure, sometimes this does happen. However, in my humble experience, most
code shops these days appear, more and more, to want ready trained "experts"
in a specific tool. Sadly, many people are willing to fit that bill. I
suppose it is the difference between coding to pay the bills and programming
for the love of programming and making a living as a side effect (even if I
was doing something else as a living, I'd still be programming in my spare
time).

Quote:
> >  Vacancy:    Delphi/Windows Programmer
> >  Skills:     Transformation of DOS applications to 32 bit Windows 95 &
> >              NT. Minimum 1 year's Borland Delphi 3. Knowledge of Clipper
> >              useful.

> doesn't mean that you shouldn't even try to apply for such a job since
> your experience doesn't fully cover what they are asking for.  Specially
> with the current tight market situation companies are more and more
> willing to invest in your training.

Like I said, there are still some code shops out there that do get it, but
it would also appear that (and this appears to be the original poster's
experience, he should know, he's in the job market at the moment) an awful
lot don't.

--
Take a look in Hagbard's World: |     w3ng - The WWW Norton Guide reader.
http://www.acemake.com/hagbard/ |  ng2html - The NG to HTML converter.
http://www.hagbard.demon.co.uk/ |       eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
Free software, including........|   dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.



Fri, 24 Nov 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Any UK Employers here?

Way back in the dim and distant past (actually it was on Mon, 8 Jun
1998 11:32:27 GMT), somebody masquerading as

piece of prose:

Quote:
>Have you tried using something like JobServe (http://www.jobserve.com/)?
>I've seen a number of Northern based Clipper oriented positions on there in
>the last few months. In fact, there is one right now:

> Vacancy:    Delphi/Windows Programmer
> Skills:     Transformation of DOS applications to 32 bit Windows 95 &
>             NT. Minimum 1 year's Borland Delphi 3. Knowledge of Clipper
>             useful.
> Location:   Bury/Manchester

I am currently subscribed to jobserve, jobsite and gisajob. I have in
fact sent my CV off for this particular position, partly because I'm
prepared to give anything a try and partly because Bury is exactly the
part of the North West I hail from and finding a job back there would
be ideal. (It would be even more ideal if the job would last more than
a few years, but that's a whole other issue)

Danny

P.S. Different signatures becuase the original post was sent from
(shh) work, and this one from home......
The Wonderful World of Danny and Debbi is at http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/DANDEB/



Fri, 24 Nov 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Any UK Employers here?

Way back in the dim and distant past (actually it was on Mon, 8 Jun
1998 16:51:59 +0200 ), somebody masquerading as Anne Krijger

Quote:



>> > I am an analyst/programmer who has worked with Clipper from 1989 to
>> > 1997.

>> Ooo, you started the same year as me. :-)

>That's because...
>.. it is you !
>(Using aliases now are we Dave ? :)

>> Amen. I find it most frustrating and short sighted that most people in the
>> industry these days appear to be interested only in "XYZ programmers". It

>That's only partly 'short sighted' if you read it to mean;
>'universal programmers/analysts with a proven experience using tool XYZ'.

>> realising that what they are really saying is "I'm not much of a programmer
>> but I do know how to act like part of a code factory using this specific

>Coder is the word.

>> I've seen a number of Northern based Clipper oriented positions on there in
>> the last few months. In fact, there is one right now:

>The main point being; t's Clipper orientated.
>The fact that they ask for:

>>  Vacancy:    Delphi/Windows Programmer
>>  Skills:     Transformation of DOS applications to 32 bit Windows 95 &
>>              NT. Minimum 1 year's Borland Delphi 3. Knowledge of Clipper
>>              useful.

>doesn't mean that you shouldn't even try to apply for such a job since your
>experience doesn't fully cover what they are asking for.
>Specially with the current tight market situation companies are more and more
>willing to invest in your training.

>Anne.

True (hopefully) but something that I was going to include in the
origianl post and then thought better of it was a moan at the fact
that recruitment agencies don't even bother to phone me up to ask if I
want to be put forward for positions like this, (even if the employer
is willing to concede that my experience is partly relevant). This
could be because their computer systems don't match people with
Clipper experience against Delphi jobs, or it could be because they
don't want to build up a reputation for sending companies irrelevant
CV's. So I'm partly having a moan at the fact there are very few
Clipper jobs around and mainly having a moan that I'm not being put
forward for a lot of jobs that I feel I may be perfectly suited to.

Does anyone else have any good/bad experiences with agencies or is it
just me? I must admit I've found all my previous jobs through an
agency and it's only now that I want to move away from where all the
jobs are that I'm having difficulties, but I'm sure there are plenty
of companies in the North West who could use an a/p 8 years
experience.... aren't there?

Danny
The Wonderful World of Danny and Debbi is at http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/DANDEB/



Fri, 24 Nov 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Any UK Employers here?


Quote:
> > > Ooo, you started the same year as me. :-)
> > That's because...  .. it is you !  (Using aliases now are we Dave ? :)
> It's the only way you can have a conversation with yourself and still appear
> to be sane (working from home does get to you in the end... <g>).

Hmmm, have too keep that in mind.
You can always talk to me when you want to Dave, here or at work:

Quote:
> > That's only partly 'short sighted' if you read it to mean; 'universal
> > programmers/analysts with a proven experience using tool XYZ'.
> Oh, sure, sometimes this does happen. However, in my humble experience, most
> code shops these days appear, more and more, to want ready trained "experts"

They do.
But since I've never applied to any of them I can't really comment other than in
those cases where I was on the hiring side...

Quote:
> for the love of programming and making a living as a side effect (even if I
> was doing something else as a living, I'd still be programming in my spare
> time).

I'm not even programming for a living most of the times now, but I'm still doing
it at home. (Perfecting your code for example :)

Quote:
> > with the current tight market situation companies are more and more
> > willing to invest in your training.
> Like I said, there are still some code shops out there that do get it, but
> it would also appear that (and this appears to be the original poster's
> experience, he should know, he's in the job market at the moment) an awful
> lot don't.

Can't comment on that.
Only got my own experience and that of some of my friends to 'rely' on, and that
tells me that if you have some sort of experience there is much interest.

Anne.



Fri, 24 Nov 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Any UK Employers here?


Quote:
> >doesn't mean that you shouldn't even try to apply for such a job since your
> >experience doesn't fully cover what they are asking for.
> True (hopefully) but something that I was going to include in the
> origianl post and then thought better of it was a moan at the fact
> that recruitment agencies don't even bother to phone me up to ask if I
> want to be put forward for positions like this, (even if the employer

That's because your CV isn't written correctly I'm sure :)

You can write;

X years experience as a programmer/analyst using Clipper.
(they toss that in the bin most of the times I think)

Or something like;

X years of experience designing, building and maintaining database apps for the
<insert fields> markets, as well in a team as independently.
Projects included Object Orientated as well as Client/Server apps.
Good knowlidge of the <Windows> operating system.
etc.

I'm sure you get the drift.
The point being you don't have to lie on your CV, or during any interview for
that matter, but you are selling something (you; the best 'product' there is :),
so you should use a bit of 'marketing'.

I'm fairly sure a CV like that will at least have them calling you because of
the buzz-words used;
- ability to work in a team as well as independently
- experience in all fases of development
- experience with database apps (a lot of apps are these days)
- OOP
- C/S
- Windows

Quote:
> Does anyone else have any good/bad experiences with agencies or is it
> just me? I must admit I've found all my previous jobs through an
> agency and it's only now that I want to move away from where all the

I don't.
Only kind agency that ever contacted me where so called 'head-hunters' that were
looking for a big fat check :)
I've been in the luxurious position that there are always more jobs being
offered to me than I have any need for. Don't really know why that is, since
from the impression I got I'm really not any better than you are :)

Anne.



Fri, 24 Nov 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Any UK Employers here?

On 6/8/98 1:32PM, in message

Quote:

> "I'm a Black And Decker gardener".

Thats why you need "power tools" by Straley

--
Sean Webb,Spyder Computing
Security , Risk Management , Fire & Rescue Database Systems
Marina Booking Systems, POS developments,
Import/Export and Freight Forwarding  Systems
Personal Home Page: http://users.iafrica.com/s/sp/spwebb



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