why never migrate to windows, long life to Clipper 
Author Message
 why never migrate to windows, long life to Clipper

a little informatic lesson

take time to read this article. It's worth much.

 a real leader

I  have built a large application in clipper 5.2, six driver 1.1c, it's
work fast and very stable.

my network:
386 workstation running Dos Add on, (network under Dos)
the server can be W95. If you put 2 Pentium with W95 you get corrupted
index (Thank's Bill)
my dream is to use LINUX as a server. running under Dosemu or Flagship.

My dream is to have a printer which print directely HTML,
you can use FiveWeb to make Internet application.
With dos you can write graphical application using HTML. I hate Windows,
it's waste too much resources. My dream is to have portable computers
running Dos, without Hard Drive, Flash memory. With Internet, Windows is
dead for me.



Thu, 28 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 why never migrate to windows, long life to Clipper

[snip]

Quote:
>My dream is to have a printer which print directely HTML,
>you can use FiveWeb to make Internet application.
>With dos you can write graphical application using HTML.

How do you access graphical-HTML with a DOS app then ? Further, to
print it without a GUI interface ?
--
Andi Jahja <see headers for my e-address>


Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 why never migrate to windows, long life to Clipper

Quote:


> [snip]

> >My dream is to have a printer which print directely HTML, you can use
> >FiveWeb to make Internet application.  With dos you can write graphical
> >application using HTML.

> How do you access graphical-HTML with a DOS app then ? Further, to print
> it without a GUI interface ?

If, as he seemed to be suggesting, he set up a server running Linux it would
be trivial to set up a print queue for printing just HTML, all you'd need is
a HTML to <PrinterType> conversion tool.

As an example, hagbard is my office print server (as well as lots of other
things), one of his print queues is a postscript printer queue, I don't own
a PostScript printer. When I send PostScript to that printer queue a utility
(GhostScript) converts the PostScript into output that my DeskJet 520 will
understand and the document gets printed.

IIRC there is at least one HTML->PS tool out there and chances are that you
can convince something like the Linux version of Netscape to load some HTML
and print it for out (its output is PostScript).

So, for the DOS machines, all you need is either SMB networking clients
(with a TCP/IP stack) and Samba on Linux or an IPX stack on the clients and
MARS/AWE on the server (lets Linux pretend to be a Netware server[1]) and
you should be networking with a file server and a print server that can
accept not only plain text and output formatted for a specific printer but
can also accept output in more "open" formats such as PostScript or HTML.

------
[1] If you felt like spending some dosh you could even opt for Caldera's
Netware for Linux.

--
Take a look in Hagbard's World: |   w3ng - The WWW Norton Guide reader.
http://www.acemake.com/hagbard/ |     eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
http://www.hagbard.demon.co.uk/ |    weg - Norton Guide reader for Windows.
Free software, including........| dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.



Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 why never migrate to windows, long life to Clipper

Quote:



>> [snip]

>> >My dream is to have a printer which print directely HTML, you can use
>> >FiveWeb to make Internet application.  With dos you can write graphical
>> >application using HTML.

>> How do you access graphical-HTML with a DOS app then ? Further, to print
>> it without a GUI interface ?

>If, as he seemed to be suggesting, he set up a server running Linux it would
>be trivial to set up a print queue for printing just HTML, all you'd need is
>a HTML to <PrinterType> conversion tool.

>As an example, hagbard is my office print server (as well as lots of other
>things), one of his print queues is a PostScript printer queue, I don't own
>a PostScript printer. When I send PostScript to that printer queue a utility
>(GhostScript) converts the PostScript into output that my DeskJet 520 will
>understand and the document gets printed.

>IIRC there is at least one HTML->PS tool out there and chances are that you
>can convince something like the Linux version of Netscape to load some HTML
>and print it for out (its output is PostScript).

>So, for the DOS machines, all you need is either SMB networking clients
>(with a TCP/IP stack) and Samba on Linux or an IPX stack on the clients and
>MARS/AWE on the server (lets Linux pretend to be a Netware server[1]) and
>you should be networking with a file server and a print server that can
>accept not only plain text and output formatted for a specific printer but
>can also accept output in more "open" formats such as PostScript or HTML.

>------
>[1] If you felt like spending some dosh you could even opt for Caldera's
>Netware for Linux.

Thanks for more than detailed explanation Dave. But back to the
original poster's "dream", if it is just to print HTML, what the hell
it will cost him ( morally ) to install Win 3.0. I believe he will
gain more productivity rather than going complicated installing Linux
and its this-and-that like what you elaborated above.

What I am trying to say is, why should we use Titanic-size ship to
cross a 10-meter-wide river ?
--
Andi Jahja <see headers for my e-address>



Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 why never migrate to windows, long life to Clipper

Quote:

> Thanks for more than detailed explanation Dave. But back to the original
> poster's "dream", if it is just to print HTML, what the hell it will cost
> him ( morally ) to install Win 3.0.

How would installing Windows allow him to auto-print HTML formatted
documents? How does the presence or absence of a GUI have anything to do
with converting a markup language into something a given printer can
understand?

Quote:
> I believe he will gain more productivity rather than going complicated
> installing Linux and its this-and-that like what you elaborated above.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it is
complicated. For example, take a RedHat GPL distribution of Linux, you can
have pretty much everything I outlined up and running in less than half an
hour (even less time depending on machine/ROM speed etc). Also, in the
complexity stakes, I'd be surprised if anyone disagreed that keeping a
number of networked Win3x workstations up and running is far more work and
hassle than installing a single Linux box.

Quote:
> What I am trying to say is, why should we use Titanic-size ship to cross a
> 10-meter-wide river ?

The solution I proposed isn't a monolithic and outdated mode of transport,
it is a large and well indexed toolbox that contains many well designed
tools.

A better question to ask would be "why would you propose installing a GUI on
the workstations when the problem calls for a smart printer server?".

Dave "Familiarity breeds incorrect solutions" Pearson

--
Take a look in Hagbard's World: |   w3ng - The WWW Norton Guide reader.
http://www.acemake.com/hagbard/ |     eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
http://www.hagbard.demon.co.uk/ |    weg - Norton Guide reader for Windows.
Free software, including........| dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.



Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 why never migrate to windows, long life to Clipper

Quote:


>> Thanks for more than detailed explanation Dave. But back to the original
>> poster's "dream", if it is just to print HTML, what the hell it will cost
>> him ( morally ) to install Win 3.0.

>How would installing Windows allow him to auto-print HTML formatted
>documents? How does the presence or absence of a GUI have anything to do
>with converting a markup language into something a given printer can
>understand?

I do not believe if an automation as what you asked is present. By
installing Win3, I thought there would at least be a simple base of
interface for HTML. Ants know that we should have an HTML reader
installed too and so a printer interface as well. Some people said
that by "associating" this-and-that, we could reach to an auto-print
of a document ( including HTML ) to an existing printer, local or
remote ( example a fax machine ). But I am about to be sure that
without a GUI we can hardly do this conveniently as we do not know
what the print out would look like.

Quote:
>> I believe he will gain more productivity rather than going complicated
>> installing Linux and its this-and-that like what you elaborated above.

>Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it is
>complicated. For example, take a RedHat GPL distribution of Linux, you can
>have pretty much everything I outlined up and running in less than half an
>hour (even less time depending on machine/ROM speed etc). Also, in the
>complexity stakes, I'd be surprised if anyone disagreed that keeping a
>number of networked Win3x workstations up and running is far more work and
>hassle than installing a single Linux box.

You are damn right. I do not know a single word of Linux. This is due
to the environmet demands. I would say that amongst 1000 end-users,
those asking Linux as a workhorse are countable with our very own
fingers ( correct me if i am wrong ). I guess this might be due to
"unadvertised" features ? In practice, people are looking for fast and
immediate availability. We cannot shake our head to say NYET to Mr BG
as far as this issue is concerned.

Quote:
>> What I am trying to say is, why should we use Titanic-size ship to cross a
>> 10-meter-wide river ?

>The solution I proposed isn't a monolithic and outdated mode of transport,
>it is a large and well indexed toolbox that contains many well designed
>tools.

And if a not so large and not a so well indexed junkbox will do that
job .. why not ?

Quote:
>A better question to ask would be "why would you propose installing a GUI on
>the workstations when the problem calls for a smart printer server?".

Maybe I am obsessed with WYSIWYG thingies and like to assure my eyes
that the output is in accordance with what they ( eyes ) want.

I did not catch you on the issue of 'smart printer server'. Did it
tell your eyes what it will print ? I was thingking about a server
that "associatable" to a certain document format ;)
--
Andi Jahja <see headers for my e-address>



Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 why never migrate to windows, long life to Clipper

Quote:



> >How would installing Windows allow him to auto-print HTML formatted
> >documents? How does the presence or absence of a GUI have anything to do
> >with converting a markup language into something a given printer can
> >understand?

> I do not believe if an automation as what you asked is present. By
> installing Win3, I thought there would at least be a simple base of
> interface for HTML.

My thinking was this, by using the setup I describe the Clipper code would
look like:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  // Use your printer setup incantation of choice....
  Set Printer To LPT1  
  Set Device  To Print

  ... Print some stuff formatted using HTML thus giving you printer
      independence ...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

IOW, the Clipper application doesn't have to have any special knowledge
about the environment other than the assumption that a "printer" groks HTML
(just like the assumption that a printer groks ASCII text).

Quote:
> Ants know that we should have an HTML reader installed too and so a
> printer interface as well.

How would use you a HTML reader to do the above under Win3x?

Quote:
> But I am about to be sure that without a GUI we can hardly do this
> conveniently as we do not know what the print out would look like.

Obviously the desire to do this will be very much application dependent. My
(possibly incorrect) assumption was that HTML was to be used for formatting
reports and the like, giving the user some form of WYSIWYG would neither
help nor hinder.

If there is a desire to *see* the output before printing this does change
the problem as stated but still doesn't require a whole GUI
environment. Last time I looked Caldera had a DOS based graphical web
browser available (I'm not suggesting that that *is* the answer, only that
their is an alternative).

Quote:
> You are damn right. I do not know a single word of Linux. This is due to
> the environmet demands. I would say that amongst 1000 end-users, those
> asking Linux as a workhorse are countable with our very own fingers
> (correct me if i am wrong ).

This is a bogus argument because it makes the assumption that the customer
is knowledgeable enough to make an informed choice about their server OS. In
my experience very few customer's do make an informed choice (you can tell
by the choice they make and how they make it). The above also makes the
assumption that the original poster wasn't his own customer and/or he wasn't
delivering a turnkey solution. You are being unfair to the poster if you
simply dismiss his stated choice of Linux.

My solution to the problem of printing HTML without the need for Windows
worked within the bounds of the problem as stated. Obviously you can negate
by solution by changing the problem but that then misses the point of the
discussion.

Quote:
> In practice, people are looking for fast and immediate availability.

I hear this quite a bit, I wonder why people feel that they have to
apologise for their choices?

Quote:
> We cannot shake our head to say NYET to Mr BG as far as this issue is
> concerned.

Bill Gates isn't my customer, neither is he my employer and he sure wasn't
the person who designed the course material I used during my five years of
computer oriented education that taught me that selecting the right tools
for the job was paramount to building a good stable system. I still believe
that is true today[1].

Quote:
> >The solution I proposed isn't a monolithic and outdated mode of
> >transport, it is a large and well indexed toolbox that contains many well
> >designed tools.

> And if a not so large and not a so well indexed junkbox will do that job
> .. why not ?

Because I appreciate the difference between "doing that job" and "doing that
job properly".

Quote:
> Maybe I am obsessed with WYSIWYG thingies and like to assure my eyes that
> the output is in accordance with what they ( eyes ) want.

Remember, the question you posed, and that I replied to, was:

     How do you [...] print it without a GUI interface ?

I demonstrated that it should be trivial to print HTML using readily
available tools without the need for a GUI. If you want to start viewing the
HTML first (which is possible in text mode) that places a slightly different
complexion on the problem.

Quote:
> I did not catch you on the issue of 'smart printer server'. Did it tell
> your eyes what it will print ? I was thingking about a server that
> "associatable" to a certain document format ;)

I'm not 100% sure I understand what you are asking here. Would you care to
clarify?

------
[1] That isn't to say that Microsoft tools are not the right ones, that
discussion belongs in your advocacy group of choice. The point here is that
many people talk in terms of MS tools and OSs as being second rate and then
feel the need to give the "sheep" explanation as justification. If they are
second rate, don't use them. Do a first rate job for your customer, not a
second rate job.

--
Take a look in Hagbard's World: |   w3ng - The WWW Norton Guide reader.
http://www.acemake.com/hagbard/ |     eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
http://www.hagbard.demon.co.uk/ |    weg - Norton Guide reader for Windows.
Free software, including........| dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.



Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 why never migrate to windows, long life to Clipper

Quote:

> my network:

> 386 workstation running Dos Add on, (network under Dos) the server can be
> W95. If you put 2 Pentium with W95 you get corrupted index (Thank's Bill)
> my dream is to use LINUX as a server. running under Dosemu or Flagship.

Why dosemu or Flagship? Don't forget to consider keeping your network as it
is right now and using samba to replace that Win95 machine as the server.

BTW, if you did use dosemu or FlagShip how would you envisage the DOS
workstations running the application? Did you have a specific TCP/IP stack
and telnet client in mind?

Quote:
> Windows is dead for me.

But, it would seem, not totally dead:

  X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I)

<g>

Quote:
> --------------C894E20825F76A927AD31ECC
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> <HTML>
> a little informatic lesson

> [SNIP]

Perhaps you'd care to ask your Windows web browser to not post HTML to usenet?

--
Take a look in Hagbard's World: |   w3ng - The WWW Norton Guide reader.
http://www.acemake.com/hagbard/ |     eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
http://www.hagbard.demon.co.uk/ |    weg - Norton Guide reader for Windows.
Free software, including........| dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.



Sat, 30 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 
 [ 8 post ] 

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