VO: Beating a dead horse? 
Author Message
 VO: Beating a dead horse?

Has CA given up on Visual Objects yet ?
Are they still trying to make it a product that someone wants ?
It was too late in coming and too cumbersome.  Usually, when a new
product comes along, it pushes the envelope to new heights.  VO
definitely did not accomplish this.

What is CA's next move going to be...buy Borland so they can kill off
delphi too ?  One can only dream what Clipper could have become if
Nantucket didn't sell out.

Rick Spence should 'jump ship' and start writing Delphi books.  He
could show us some great tips  the language, like he did in his
Clipper books.  His Clipper books are still the best on the market.

I know some (most) of you disagree with me, but to further prove my
point, I have listed below all of the VO positions listed in this
weeks Sunday NY Times:

'Nuf Said

ED



Sat, 24 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 VO: Beating a dead horse?

Quote:

> Has CA given up on Visual Objects yet ?
> Are they still trying to make it a product that someone wants ?
> It was too late in coming and too cumbersome.  Usually, when a new
> product comes along, it pushes the envelope to new heights.  VO
> definitely did not accomplish this.

> What is CA's next move going to be...buy Borland so they can kill off
> Delphi too ?  One can only dream what Clipper could have become if
> Nantucket didn't sell out.

> Rick Spence should 'jump ship' and start writing Delphi books.  He
> could show us some great tips  the language, like he did in his
> Clipper books.  His Clipper books are still the best on the market.

> I know some (most) of you disagree with me, but to further prove my
> point, I have listed below all of the VO positions listed in this
> weeks Sunday NY Times:

> 'Nuf Said

> ED

I personally would agree.  If you are going to acquire new skills and
bet your career and future, it should be on a product that will give you
new opportunities.  That's why I am using Delphi.  Borland may not be as
financially as sound as I would like, but they will survive if they keep
producing software products like Delphi.

CA, on the other hand, may be doing fine financially, but I don't have a
great deal of confidence in them when it comes to delivering solid,
leading edge software, and marketing it properly.

VO was a great vaporware product in it's time (before it was released).
I think you have been very kind...I would have said something more like
{*filter*} a dead snail...



Sat, 24 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 VO: Beating a dead horse?

Quote:

> Has CA given up on Visual Objects yet ?
> Are they still trying to make it a product that someone wants ?
> It was too late in coming and too cumbersome.  Usually, when a new
> product comes along, it pushes the envelope to new heights.  VO
> definitely did not accomplish this.

>I attended the release of VO in NEW Orleans in September 1994. They

launched VO 1.0 soon followed by 1.0a and now we have 1.0c. I made the
following statement a one breakfast session, that I felt that 90% of
CLIPPER heads would 'not make the transition or could not make the
transistion' due to in part there introduction to programming was from
DBAse or Clipper entry. I further stated that the CLIPPER gurus were
unlikely to be the VO gurus because the nature of the market, the end
user will be a whole new breed. etc.
What CLIPPER was originally was a TOOL for speeding up DBASE code. What
Clipper became was and still is an excellent development language in its
own right, with a huge CULT following. I do not see amny jobs for
Clipper programmers advertised. I am sure most customers would not have
a clue that their excellent customer software package was written in
Clipper. The Cliiper community was like a big family with everybody
willing to help each other and was OUTSIDE of the Microsoft army. The
windows environment has changed everthing and Microsoft / Windows has
changed the way we will program possibly for ever.

I feel that VO is an excellent language and concept. Database language,
Indexes, IDE all in one box. I read some of the DELPHI converts and they
need a bit of this and a bit of that to do what Vo can do right out of
the box. (except for CARET which is CRAP). I know that those people who
have spent an appropriate amount of time utilising the best of VO,
learnt the power of the language are now developing quality application.
Remember the product is just over 2 years old and VO 2.0 looks good. I
hope they make V1.0d work like V2.0.

All I ever here in these columns is people complaining. I remember when
Clipper 5.01 came out and I could not use it for 12 months because it
was unstable and the learning curve was 'TOO STEEP'. I know of many
programmers who dumped Clipper because 5.0 was 'too hard'.

Can we please have some contructive input to VO. Upload your AEF's so
new users can benefit from your test work. I believe VO is more than a
viable language if we as a user group give credit for what is good and
ask for improvement, give genuine feedback  in the areas that are
lacking. I believe the products like GRIPRO, REPORT PRO and NU VO shows
what VO is capable of. Remember the product is ONLY 2 years old, give it
a change to be 3 or 4 etc.

Phil Mc Guinness  - Sherlock Software - Australia



Sun, 25 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 VO: Beating a dead horse?

Quote:

>Has CA given up on Visual Objects yet ?

The scam is evolving into 2.0 <g>

Quote:
>Rick Spence should 'jump ship' and start writing Delphi books.  He
>could show us some great tips  the language, like he did in his
>Clipper books.  His Clipper books are still the best on the market.

As a matter of public fact, Rick (some time ago) posted on Compuserve that he
no longer supported VO.  As could be expected, those that hailed him as the
guru of VO, denounced him as a heretic.  He teaches Delphi and perhaps other
things now.  He wrote it was "buggy" and "unsupported" and when pressed wrote
"it lacked features."

Many of us have known that for some time and Rick can be a little slow <g>

Bottom line, VO will make it or break it regardless of what we do or what we
think.  I'd suggest letting it lay and if things turn around and it turns out
the be the most "powerful thing on Earth" (tm) we can certainly purchase a
copy at that time.

tom



Sun, 25 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 VO: Beating a dead horse?

Hi Larry

Quote:

> > Rick Spence should 'jump ship' and start writing Delphi books.  He
> > could show us some great tips  the language, like he did in his
> > Clipper books.  His Clipper books are still the best on the market.

FYI, Rick Spence has already jumped ship ! He's into Delphi...

--
Regards

Chee Chong Hwa, aka C.H. Chee
Penang,MALAYSIA

Who the heck Is Chee Chong Hwa ?
http://www.cch.com.my/cch/people/cch

Clipper...Clipper...Clipper
http://www.cch.com.my/cch/clipper

CCH SOFTWARE SOLUTION SDN. BHD.    
http://www.cch.com.my/cch/cchss  

CCH WEB SERVICES SDN. BHD.
http://www.cch.com.my/cch



Sun, 25 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 VO: Beating a dead horse?

Quote:

>As a matter of public fact, Rick (some time ago) posted on Compuserve
that he
>no longer supported VO.  As could be expected, those that hailed him as the
>guru of VO, denounced him as a heretic.  He teaches Delphi and perhaps other
>things now.  He wrote it was "buggy" and "unsupported" and when pressed
wrote
>"it lacked features."

"unsupported" is a key word here and CA doesn't even bother to make VO
popular, no ads in any  magazines for a long time and to make things
worse they put CA-Clipper and CA-dBFast in the back burner. This made
many people mad. No wonder why many developers are switching to
Delphi, VB and other products.. As things are, I wouldn't recommend
VO to anyone.

Quote:
>be the most "powerful thing on Earth" (tm)

                    ^
                    |
                    |---------- Is this a Clipper trademark? :-)

Armando



Sun, 25 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 VO: Beating a dead horse?


Quote:
> Has CA given up on Visual Objects yet ?

[snip]

Quote:
> I know some (most) of you disagree with me, but to further prove my
> point, I have listed below all of the VO positions listed in this
> weeks Sunday NY Times:

> 'Nuf Said

Maybe you could mention how many clipper programmer and how
many delphi programmer positions were listed in that edition of the
NY times. This is very important information to the above statement.

Arend



Sun, 25 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 VO: Beating a dead horse?


Quote:

> Hi Larry


> > > Rick Spence should 'jump ship' and start writing Delphi books.  He
> > > could show us some great tips  the language, like he did in his
> > > Clipper books.  His Clipper books are still the best on the market.

> FYI, Rick Spence has already jumped ship ! He's into Delphi...

> --
> Regards

> Chee Chong Hwa, aka C.H. Chee
> Penang,MALAYSIA

[snip]

I would suggest you brush up on how to read posts.  I did not write the
above.  The individual whom I was responding to in my post did....



Sun, 25 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 VO: Beating a dead horse?

Quote:


>> Has CA given up on Visual Objects yet ?
>> Are they still trying to make it a product that someone wants ?
>> It was too late in coming and too cumbersome.  Usually, when a new
>> product comes along, it pushes the envelope to new heights.  VO
>> definitely did not accomplish this.

>All I ever here in these columns is people complaining. I remember when
>Clipper 5.01 came out and I could not use it for 12 months because it
>was unstable and the learning curve was 'TOO STEEP'. I know of many
>programmers who dumped Clipper because 5.0 was 'too hard'.

I moved from Clipper S87 to C5 easily enough. I've programmed the
windows SDK happily enough (mind you, I liked assembler). VO is not
"difficult", it just doesn't work properly. The major complaint we
have is the repository. Why trust a development system that regularly
trashes its central resource? And won't tell you its trashed until
your backup regime has gone full circle and all you have that's
untrashed is six months old?

Oh yes - the repository repair tool from CA doesn't work either,
according to Tech Support.

The main reason people complain about VO is because it doesn't do what
it should. It doesn't work in the way the documentation claims and it
screws up things it should protect. The most often heard comment from
Tech support seems to be "Oh yes, it does that". Why?

Quote:
> Remember the product is ONLY 2 years old, give it
>a change to be 3 or 4 etc.

Why? We've spent a year fighting the thing and are probably now going
to jump ship. We've come to the conclusion that VO can't be trusted
with our patient database and want something that can. Personally, I'm
not prepared to wait two years whilst my staff get more and more
frustrated and patient records continue to get screwed up.

Paul.
-------------------------------------------
Expressed opinions are usually my own.
Especially if they're any good (of course).
-------------------------------------------



Sun, 25 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 VO: Beating a dead horse?

Quote:


> > Has CA given up on Visual Objects yet ?
> > Are they still trying to make it a product that someone wants ?
> > It was too late in coming and too cumbersome.  Usually, when a new
> > product comes along, it pushes the envelope to new heights.  VO
> > definitely did not accomplish this.

> >I attended the release of VO in NEW Orleans in September 1994. They
> launched VO 1.0 soon followed by 1.0a and now we have 1.0c. I made the
> following statement a one breakfast session, that I felt that 90% of
> CLIPPER heads would 'not make the transition or could not make the
> transistion' due to in part there introduction to programming was from
> DBAse or Clipper entry. I further stated that the CLIPPER gurus were
> unlikely to be the VO gurus because the nature of the market, the end
> user will be a whole new breed. etc.

I hope you are wearing your fire retardent underwear :-)

I entirely agree with you.  I have been using VO since it was a
pre-release, and have enjoyed learning how to use it effectively.  The
main problem I think is moving from DOS to Windows, not Clipper to x.
You suddenly have to copw with a computer that is doing more than one
thing at a time.  Gosh, what a difference.

Quote:
> I feel that VO is an excellent language and concept. Database language,
> Indexes, IDE all in one box. I read some of the DELPHI converts and they
> need a bit of this and a bit of that to do what Vo can do right out of
> the box.

I have tried to use Delphi, VB and VO, and still like Vo the best as far
as an object oriented language goes.  If I want to write a simple
utility, I use Delphi.  As soon as you want to use it for xBase type
stuff, forget it.  You have to add on a bit here and a bit there before
you can even open a dbf file.  Using the BDE and trying to figure out
how to automate its setup for distributed applications is a nightmare,
for me anyway.  Maybe it is because I am a lesser mortal or something.

One of the things I like most is that if you want to create a class in
Vo, you can say
        CLASS MyClass INHERIT ParentClass
and to create a method:
        METHOD MyMethodName() CLASS MyClass

Could not be much easier could it?  Memory garbage collection is nice
too.

I guess I might be flamed for such heresies, but at least I know that I
have recovered the cost of development for my applications, and learned
so much more about the "modern" programming environment, simply because
I persevered with VO.

So, Thank you Phil for encouraging me to speak out.  Happy VOing.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Richard M. Marks

If I Had Any Opinions, They would be Mine.
"If it wasn't for public transport I wouldn't be here today."
-------------------------------------------------------------



Mon, 26 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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