C55 Manuals 
Author Message
 C55 Manuals

Anybody know if there is ANY possibility of manuals being included with
the final release of C55?

[L]



Mon, 30 Dec 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 C55 Manuals
Hi Leroy,

    No printed manuals will be included.  Only PDF stuff.  You'll be able to
order printed manuals but they will be extra.....:(

Best Regards,

Dean Burgess


Quote:
> Anybody know if there is ANY possibility of manuals being included with
> the final release of C55?

> [L]



Mon, 30 Dec 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 C55 Manuals
And, my understanding is they will be the 5.0 manuals, since there aren't
any major changes.
If you order manuals, be patient and call daily to see if they've shipped.

Regards,
  J J


Quote:
> Hi Leroy,

>     No printed manuals will be included.  Only PDF stuff.  You'll be able
to
> order printed manuals but they will be extra.....:(

> Best Regards,

> Dean Burgess



> > Anybody know if there is ANY possibility of manuals being included with
> > the final release of C55?

> > [L]



Mon, 30 Dec 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 C55 Manuals
I don't believe there will be printed manuals available.
The responses that I have received suggest that I can
bring the PDF files to kinkos and have them printed there.

The price that was mentioned was $35 - $50 to print out the
most commonly used stuff and then I could print out
anything else that I needed with the from_page
to_page print PDF option.

The price that I received for the 2K number of pages at the
local print shop was $150 - $250 depending on the options
that I selected, and the number of graphics included.

I also remember reading that only the alpha version of the
manuals will be initially available. The completed PDF
files would be available later, but everything is
changeable.

The statements that have been made indicate that this will
make it easier to fix the errors in the documentation and
allow the manuals to be more easily refined, but I don't
think that this should to be considered a promise from SV or even
an indication of a statement of direction. Things are changing
alot. This is not the old Topspeed or Clarion, it's a new
company that is going to go in it's own direction.
For better or worse.

Tim


Quote:
> Hi Leroy,

>     No printed manuals will be included.  Only PDF stuff.  You'll be able
to
> order printed manuals but they will be extra.....:(

> Best Regards,

> Dean Burgess



> > Anybody know if there is ANY possibility of manuals being included with
> > the final release of C55?

> > [L]



Mon, 30 Dec 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 C55 Manuals
Hi Tim,

    I had understood that SoftVelocity had negotiated with some company that
we could get "print on demand" manuals.  As I understood, the printer would
always have the latest version of the PDFs and if you ordered a copy to be
printed you could get a set of bound manuals that contained the latest
information.  Now, what this would cost I have no idea.  Now I understand
why you were so upset about this.  I *think* printed manuals will be
available, we'll just have to order.

Best Regards,

Dean Burgess


Quote:
> I don't believe there will be printed manuals available.
> The responses that I have received suggest that I can
> bring the PDF files to kinkos and have them printed there.

> The price that was mentioned was $35 - $50 to print out the
> most commonly used stuff and then I could print out
> anything else that I needed with the from_page
> to_page print PDF option.

> The price that I received for the 2K number of pages at the
> local print shop was $150 - $250 depending on the options
> that I selected, and the number of graphics included.

> I also remember reading that only the alpha version of the
> manuals will be initially available. The completed PDF
> files would be available later, but everything is
> changeable.

> The statements that have been made indicate that this will
> make it easier to fix the errors in the documentation and
> allow the manuals to be more easily refined, but I don't
> think that this should to be considered a promise from SV or even
> an indication of a statement of direction. Things are changing
> alot. This is not the old Topspeed or Clarion, it's a new
> company that is going to go in it's own direction.
> For better or worse.

> Tim



> > Hi Leroy,

> >     No printed manuals will be included.  Only PDF stuff.  You'll be
able
> to
> > order printed manuals but they will be extra.....:(

> > Best Regards,

> > Dean Burgess



> > > Anybody know if there is ANY possibility of manuals being included
with
> > > the final release of C55?

> > > [L]



Mon, 30 Dec 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 C55 Manuals
You know, I have owned MS Visual Studio Enterprise for
a number of years. I upgraded to version 6.0 when it was
announced. Upgrade cost $925. I got VB, VC++, VJ++,
Visual Foxpro, MSSQLServer, Visual Interdev, WinNT,
etc. That is a lot of software for the money, and the
products are pretty stable. MS isn't a great company,
but it has always treated me pretty well.

I get online docs, install and getting started manuals,
printed object library chart. I can go to the bookstores
and get all of the books I want. After I pay to get a set
of manuals for Clarion, I'll have paid more for Clarion
than MS Visual Studio. The really sad part is that
all of this software from MS runs in an integrated 32-bit
environment, I get regular updates from the web,
I can write OCX's and pick up tons of them from online
stores, and tons of them free from sites on the web.

In VB I really don't write much more code than Clarion,
VB has a couple of wizards and lots of little utilities.
This is the universe that SV Clarion lives in. To get
new customers and to keep the ones they have,
they have to be a different company, not just another
face in the crowd.

I have purchased many of the templates for CW
over the years, most of them very good, but what
they add to the product is already in the box from
MS.

I used to use Delphi, I was a loyal fan of Turbo
Pascal from version 2.0 right thru Delphi 3.0. Then
it started to get more expensive. The things that
made it stand out became common for other
products to have. Actually, the tool that killed
off Delphi for me was Clarion.

Who knows, ISE Eiffel or Visual Prolog may
be what finally does in Clarion for me.

Tim


Quote:
> Hi Tim,

>     I had understood that SoftVelocity had negotiated with some company
that
> we could get "print on demand" manuals.  As I understood, the printer
would
> always have the latest version of the PDFs and if you ordered a copy to be
> printed you could get a set of bound manuals that contained the latest
> information.  Now, what this would cost I have no idea.  Now I understand
> why you were so upset about this.  I *think* printed manuals will be
> available, we'll just have to order.

> Best Regards,

> Dean Burgess



> > I don't believe there will be printed manuals available.
> > The responses that I have received suggest that I can
> > bring the PDF files to kinkos and have them printed there.

> > The price that was mentioned was $35 - $50 to print out the
> > most commonly used stuff and then I could print out
> > anything else that I needed with the from_page
> > to_page print PDF option.

> > The price that I received for the 2K number of pages at the
> > local print shop was $150 - $250 depending on the options
> > that I selected, and the number of graphics included.

> > I also remember reading that only the alpha version of the
> > manuals will be initially available. The completed PDF
> > files would be available later, but everything is
> > changeable.

> > The statements that have been made indicate that this will
> > make it easier to fix the errors in the documentation and
> > allow the manuals to be more easily refined, but I don't
> > think that this should to be considered a promise from SV or even
> > an indication of a statement of direction. Things are changing
> > alot. This is not the old Topspeed or Clarion, it's a new
> > company that is going to go in it's own direction.
> > For better or worse.

> > Tim



> > > Hi Leroy,

> > >     No printed manuals will be included.  Only PDF stuff.  You'll be
> able
> > to
> > > order printed manuals but they will be extra.....:(

> > > Best Regards,

> > > Dean Burgess



> > > > Anybody know if there is ANY possibility of manuals being included
> with
> > > > the final release of C55?

> > > > [L]



Mon, 30 Dec 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 C55 Manuals


Quote:
> You know, I have owned MS Visual Studio Enterprise for
> a number of years. I upgraded to version 6.0 when it was
> announced. Upgrade cost $925. I got VB, VC++, VJ++,
> Visual Foxpro, MSSQLServer, Visual Interdev, WinNT,
> etc. That is a lot of software for the money, and the
> products are pretty stable. MS isn't a great company,
> but it has always treated me pretty well.

Microsoft was, until a couple months ago, capitalized at 450 billion
dollars.  That might make a slight difference in what they throw into the
pot for a price.

Quote:

> I get online docs, install and getting started manuals,
> printed object library chart. I can go to the bookstores
> and get all of the books I want. After I pay to get a set
> of manuals for Clarion, I'll have paid more for Clarion
> than MS Visual Studio. The really sad part is that
> all of this software from MS runs in an integrated 32-bit
> environment, I get regular updates from the web,
> I can write OCX's and pick up tons of them from online
> stores, and tons of them free from sites on the web.

Um .. same story

Quote:
> In VB I really don't write much more code than Clarion,
> VB has a couple of wizards and lots of little utilities.
> This is the universe that SV Clarion lives in. To get
> new customers and to keep the ones they have,
> they have to be a different company, not just another
> face in the crowd.

> I have purchased many of the templates for CW
> over the years, most of them very good, but what
> they add to the product is already in the box from
> MS.

again the theme keeps running through

Quote:
> I used to use Delphi, I was a loyal fan of Turbo
> Pascal from version 2.0 right thru Delphi 3.0. Then
> it started to get more expensive. The things that
> made it stand out became common for other
> products to have. Actually, the tool that killed
> off Delphi for me was Clarion.

It got more expensive because they couldn't make money selling at the price
it was at, esp with the stuff they were throwing in.

I have to kinda laugh tho.  We go out and buy $20,000 cars (im not even
considering those folks buying $40,000 cars and SUVs) and yet we complain
investing 1500 bucks into a tool that makes us money and pays for itself
given time.

joe



Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 C55 Manuals
emm... for most its the $1500 tools that pay for the $40,000 car !!!!

Having said that - TS has not kept up with the market.... and as to keeping
promises...

I'm responsible for keeping existing apps written in Clarion ticking over.
No new development in Clarion until we see some light at the end of SV tunnel.

I'm a VB man new to Clarion (about 2-3 months) - I was chosen to support
Clarion apps - we've got tones of Clarion apps.

All new development is in VB / Oracle. January 2000 probably 90% was done in
Clarion...

You are right MS is a big, big outfit. Lots of code, lots of developers, lots
of books.....

Poor Clarion developers - NO support speak of from TS/SV, practically no books,
1 magazine....... emmm...

watching, waiting....

Quote:



> > You know, I have owned MS Visual Studio Enterprise for
> > a number of years. I upgraded to version 6.0 when it was
> > announced. Upgrade cost $925. I got VB, VC++, VJ++,
> > Visual Foxpro, MSSQLServer, Visual Interdev, WinNT,
> > etc. That is a lot of software for the money, and the
> > products are pretty stable. MS isn't a great company,
> > but it has always treated me pretty well.

> Microsoft was, until a couple months ago, capitalized at 450 billion
> dollars.  That might make a slight difference in what they throw into the
> pot for a price.

> > I get online docs, install and getting started manuals,
> > printed object library chart. I can go to the bookstores
> > and get all of the books I want. After I pay to get a set
> > of manuals for Clarion, I'll have paid more for Clarion
> > than MS Visual Studio. The really sad part is that
> > all of this software from MS runs in an integrated 32-bit
> > environment, I get regular updates from the web,
> > I can write OCX's and pick up tons of them from online
> > stores, and tons of them free from sites on the web.

> Um .. same story

> > In VB I really don't write much more code than Clarion,
> > VB has a couple of wizards and lots of little utilities.
> > This is the universe that SV Clarion lives in. To get
> > new customers and to keep the ones they have,
> > they have to be a different company, not just another
> > face in the crowd.

> > I have purchased many of the templates for CW
> > over the years, most of them very good, but what
> > they add to the product is already in the box from
> > MS.

> again the theme keeps running through

> > I used to use Delphi, I was a loyal fan of Turbo
> > Pascal from version 2.0 right thru Delphi 3.0. Then
> > it started to get more expensive. The things that
> > made it stand out became common for other
> > products to have. Actually, the tool that killed
> > off Delphi for me was Clarion.

> It got more expensive because they couldn't make money selling at the price
> it was at, esp with the stuff they were throwing in.

> I have to kinda laugh tho.  We go out and buy $20,000 cars (im not even
> considering those folks buying $40,000 cars and SUVs) and yet we complain
> investing 1500 bucks into a tool that makes us money and pays for itself
> given time.

> joe



Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 C55 Manuals
Microsoft had it's begining as a software company
developing language products. How did they get to
where they are? By listening to their customers,
making some good guesses in the market and by
producing the products their users requested.

Clarion has been around for a long time to, why are
they still a small company and not a giant like
Microsoft? At least in part because they made some
wrong guesses, don't always listen to their customers and
have not concentrated on the aspects of their
product line that developers need.

I like Clarion but let's be serious, getting less
while paying more is not the right direction.

Tim


Quote:



> > You know, I have owned MS Visual Studio Enterprise for
> > a number of years. I upgraded to version 6.0 when it was
> > announced. Upgrade cost $925. I got VB, VC++, VJ++,
> > Visual Foxpro, MSSQLServer, Visual Interdev, WinNT,
> > etc. That is a lot of software for the money, and the
> > products are pretty stable. MS isn't a great company,
> > but it has always treated me pretty well.

> Microsoft was, until a couple months ago, capitalized at 450 billion
> dollars.  That might make a slight difference in what they throw into the
> pot for a price.

> > I get online docs, install and getting started manuals,
> > printed object library chart. I can go to the bookstores
> > and get all of the books I want. After I pay to get a set
> > of manuals for Clarion, I'll have paid more for Clarion
> > than MS Visual Studio. The really sad part is that
> > all of this software from MS runs in an integrated 32-bit
> > environment, I get regular updates from the web,
> > I can write OCX's and pick up tons of them from online
> > stores, and tons of them free from sites on the web.

> Um .. same story

> > In VB I really don't write much more code than Clarion,
> > VB has a couple of wizards and lots of little utilities.
> > This is the universe that SV Clarion lives in. To get
> > new customers and to keep the ones they have,
> > they have to be a different company, not just another
> > face in the crowd.

> > I have purchased many of the templates for CW
> > over the years, most of them very good, but what
> > they add to the product is already in the box from
> > MS.

> again the theme keeps running through

> > I used to use Delphi, I was a loyal fan of Turbo
> > Pascal from version 2.0 right thru Delphi 3.0. Then
> > it started to get more expensive. The things that
> > made it stand out became common for other
> > products to have. Actually, the tool that killed
> > off Delphi for me was Clarion.

> It got more expensive because they couldn't make money selling at the
price
> it was at, esp with the stuff they were throwing in.

> I have to kinda laugh tho.  We go out and buy $20,000 cars (im not even
> considering those folks buying $40,000 cars and SUVs) and yet we complain
> investing 1500 bucks into a tool that makes us money and pays for itself
> given time.

> joe



Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 C55 Manuals


Quote:
> Microsoft had it's begining as a software company
> developing language products. How did they get to
> where they are? By listening to their customers,
> making some good guesses in the market and by
> producing the products their users requested.

A whole lot of people would disagree with this.

Quote:
> Clarion has been around for a long time to, why are
> they still a small company and not a giant like
> Microsoft? At least in part because they made some
> wrong guesses, don't always listen to their customers and
> have not concentrated on the aspects of their
> product line that developers need.

Getting a royalty off of every PC sold helps fund the other stuff.

Quote:
> I like Clarion but let's be serious, getting less
> while paying more is not the right direction.

Im not saying all is perfect and good in clarion land.  But i do say that
features cost money and even more money when you don't have other revenue
streams to fund it.  I evaluate my perceived benefit from the cost presented
and i decide whenever i upgrade whether i think its worth it.   The money i
have made (even as a part time programmer) has far exceeded the cost of the
tool (and even all the upgrades put together).

That being said im waiting to see if SV delivers some real updating for the
next version.  That will factor highly in whether i keep upgrading or not.
The feature list that Bob Z added at ETC was a good start but it obviously
has its cost as we have to wait longer for a gold version that we've already
waited a long time for.

joe



Wed, 01 Jan 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 C55 Manuals


Quote:



> > Microsoft had it's begining as a software company
> > developing language products. How did they get to
> > where they are? By listening to their customers,
> > making some good guesses in the market and by
> > producing the products their users requested.

> A whole lot of people would disagree with this.

And I think that many more would agree. That is how
a company makes money. No body buys stuff they
can't use and don't need or want. (well most don't)
I can go back to some of my early Dr. Dobbs and
C Users Journal magazines and the articles about
MS ain't all bad.

Quote:

> > Clarion has been around for a long time to, why are
> > they still a small company and not a giant like
> > Microsoft? At least in part because they made some
> > wrong guesses, don't always listen to their customers and
> > have not concentrated on the aspects of their
> > product line that developers need.

> Getting a royalty off of every PC sold helps fund the other stuff.

A company with a large installed base of software can make
people buy their products. In the early 80's when I was
installing  PC's in the field offices of the company I worked
for, IBM not MS was the company pulling the strings. That
lead to clones. There was even IBMDOS and DR DOS.
MS didn't rule anything, not the OS, and certainly not
the language market. So the argument that they could
command anyone to do anything doesn't work until
much later when the Mac had priced itself out of the
market and IBM had screwed up the OS market completely.

Quote:

> > I like Clarion but let's be serious, getting less
> > while paying more is not the right direction.

> Im not saying all is perfect and good in clarion land.  But i do say that
> features cost money and even more money when you don't have other revenue
> streams to fund it.  I evaluate my perceived benefit from the cost
presented
> and i decide whenever i upgrade whether i think its worth it.   The money
i
> have made (even as a part time programmer) has far exceeded the cost of
the
> tool (and even all the upgrades put together).

> That being said im waiting to see if SV delivers some real updating for
the
> next version.  That will factor highly in whether i keep upgrading or not.
> The feature list that Bob Z added at ETC was a good start but it obviously
> has its cost as we have to wait longer for a gold version that we've
already
> waited a long time for.

And I'm not saying that Clarion is going to fade away. I just think that
service and advertising are just as important as product (unfortunately).
And right now, I don't think SV is doing the right things in either
department.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> joe



Wed, 01 Jan 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 C55 Manuals
Whatever happened to the days (only 2-3 years ago from what I recall) when
Topspeed actually boasted about the manuals that were INCLUDED in their product
when it was a LOT less expensive?

[L]



Sun, 05 Jan 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 C55 Manuals


Quote:
>Whatever happened to the days (only 2-3 years ago from what I recall) when
>Topspeed actually boasted about the manuals that were INCLUDED in their product
>when it was a LOT less expensive?

They no longer exist, nor does TopSpeed.  Next question? <g>

Regards,
Brett C. Cammack



Sun, 05 Jan 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 C55 Manuals

Quote:





> > > Microsoft had it's begining as a software company
> > > developing language products. How did they get to
> > > where they are? By listening to their customers,
> > > making some good guesses in the market and by
> > > producing the products their users requested.

> > A whole lot of people would disagree with this.

> And I think that many more would agree. That is how
> a company makes money. No body buys stuff they
> can't use and don't need or want. (well most don't)
> I can go back to some of my early Dr. Dobbs and
> C Users Journal magazines and the articles about
> MS ain't all bad.

Read your history.

MS would never be where it is today if it didn't own the OS. And they only
own the OS because of a massively stupid mistake by IBM. Owning the OS gave
MS the clout to make their definitely-less-than-best-of-breed applications
software bury the competition. Certainly, they've done a few other things
right along the way, but they never would have gotten as large as they are
selling languages and applications software -- they got there by owning the
OS and leveraging that into other areas.

Richard



Sun, 05 Jan 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 C55 Manuals
Actually, MS gets 70% of it's revenue from Office.

IBM and Digital Research dropped the ball with regards
to the PC operating system. IBM did try to produce a PC
operating system several times but for some reason
they just sucked at marketing it.

There were also several other good dos competitors around
that never went anywhere, not to mention the overpriced
Apple. I think it's a little simplistic to think that MS fell
into this spot and somehow didn't earn it. Apple certainly
could have screwed up those plans by making some smart
marketing decisions but they didn't.

MS made some good moves and had some luck, they made
the most of the opportunities; that's what successful
companies do. They make money in one area and then
use that money to move into other areas. It's called
diversification. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

SV will have(Clarion/Topspeed have had) opportunities, they
just need to make the best of them.

I've been using Clarion since Clarion 1.0 beta 2, the manuals
were always included. I think it's fair to say that I had reasonable
expectations that the manuals would continue to be part of the
product offering. The fact that SV decided to discontinue that
practice after the beta program began was a bad decision IMHO.
Even SV has admitted that it was not carried out well.

Tim


Quote:






> > > > Microsoft had it's begining as a software company
> > > > developing language products. How did they get to
> > > > where they are? By listening to their customers,
> > > > making some good guesses in the market and by
> > > > producing the products their users requested.

> > > A whole lot of people would disagree with this.

> > And I think that many more would agree. That is how
> > a company makes money. No body buys stuff they
> > can't use and don't need or want. (well most don't)
> > I can go back to some of my early Dr. Dobbs and
> > C Users Journal magazines and the articles about
> > MS ain't all bad.

> Read your history.

> MS would never be where it is today if it didn't own the OS. And they only
> own the OS because of a massively stupid mistake by IBM. Owning the OS
gave
> MS the clout to make their definitely-less-than-best-of-breed applications
> software bury the competition. Certainly, they've done a few other things
> right along the way, but they never would have gotten as large as they are
> selling languages and applications software -- they got there by owning
the
> OS and leveraging that into other areas.

> Richard



Sun, 05 Jan 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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