Visual Basic, Only Hackers Don't Document

Only Hackers Don't Document

Author	Message
Walt Garme #1 / 25	Only Hackers Don't Document The saddest thing about the popularity of VB, and potentially its downfall, is the fact that it opened up programming to a wide variety of dumb shit hackers that do not document their code, do not understand the how-tos and whys of database normalization, and therefore are really scrubs who don't deserve to be in the same income bracket as real developers. HACKERS WRITE CODE. DEVELOPERS WRITE CODE AND DOCUMENTATION. No trolling intended. I just needed to vent some steam after working with a team of incompetents for a year and a half. -- www.cotse.com - Anonymous USENET posting made easy!
Sat, 11 May 2002 03:00:00 GMT

Neila Ness #2 / 25	Only Hackers Don't Document Unfortunately with RAD you sometimes also get Really Asinine Documentation...;-( Radically Aggressive Deadlines Raw Airhead Developers.. help me out here... ;-) Neila Quote: > Try finding a bug in a bazillion lines of > machine code that runs across three processors > that share some common memory space and interrupts > but not all and not all the time. > And _nobody_ can find all the documents for the code. > And I wonder why I'm going bald. > Did I mention it uses "core" memory where you can > actually SEE the cores! And it's programmed with > a real honest to god paper tape reader! Well.. > it's mylar tape now but still.. woooo.. :> > Then again, I'm guilty of coding that way. > I wasn't given enough time to write the docs so they > have to live with the comments in the code. > "Walt Garmel" wrote ... > > The saddest thing about the popularity of VB, and > > potentially its downfall, is the fact that it opened up > > programming to a wide variety of dumb shit hackers that do > > not document their code, do not understand the how-tos and > > whys of database normalization, and therefore are really > > scrubs who don't deserve to be in the same income bracket > > as real developers. > > HACKERS WRITE CODE. DEVELOPERS WRITE CODE AND > > DOCUMENTATION. > > No trolling intended. I just needed to vent some steam > > after working with a team of incompetents for a year and a > > half. > > -- > > www.cotse.com - Anonymous USENET posting made easy!
Sat, 11 May 2002 03:00:00 GMT

Stan Blan #3 / 25	Only Hackers Don't Document Raggedy Ass Development? Quote: > Unfortunately with RAD you sometimes also get > Really Asinine Documentation...;-( > Radically Aggressive Deadlines > Raw Airhead Developers.. > help me out here... ;-) > Neila
Sat, 11 May 2002 03:00:00 GMT

Doug #4 / 25	Only Hackers Don't Document Try finding a bug in a bazillion lines of machine code that runs across three processors that share some common memory space and interrupts but not all and not all the time. And _nobody_ can find all the documents for the code. And I wonder why I'm going bald. Did I mention it uses "core" memory where you can actually SEE the cores! And it's programmed with a real honest to god paper tape reader! Well.. it's mylar tape now but still.. woooo.. :> Then again, I'm guilty of coding that way. I wasn't given enough time to write the docs so they have to live with the comments in the code. "Walt Garmel" wrote ... Quote: > The saddest thing about the popularity of VB, and > potentially its downfall, is the fact that it opened up > programming to a wide variety of dumb shit hackers that do > not document their code, do not understand the how-tos and > whys of database normalization, and therefore are really > scrubs who don't deserve to be in the same income bracket > as real developers. > HACKERS WRITE CODE. DEVELOPERS WRITE CODE AND > DOCUMENTATION. > No trolling intended. I just needed to vent some steam > after working with a team of incompetents for a year and a > half. > -- > www.cotse.com - Anonymous USENET posting made easy!
Sun, 12 May 2002 03:00:00 GMT

Clint LaFeve #5 / 25	Only Hackers Don't Document Amen. Also with RAD tools such as VB, other developers start looking down on VB and tools like it because it does attract to many poor developers. Unfortunatly the demand is so high, it makes it so easy for them to find jobs. I just wish colleges and schools would have qualified instructors to teach these new developers. All the professors I ever had are from the old school of programming and really are only teaching because they could not keep up with the new technology. This is not a bash against any instructors out there, I know there must be great ones, I have just never met any. My last instructor actually asked me for a job and stated that he would love to work for me after seeing how I developed. The class was an advanced class of using VB and MTS to develope 3/n-tier applicaitons. -Clint LaFever Quote: >The saddest thing about the popularity of VB, and >potentially its downfall, is the fact that it opened up >programming to a wide variety of dumb shit hackers that do >not document their code, do not understand the how-tos and >whys of database normalization, and therefore are really >scrubs who don't deserve to be in the same income bracket >as real developers. >HACKERS WRITE CODE. DEVELOPERS WRITE CODE AND >DOCUMENTATION. >No trolling intended. I just needed to vent some steam >after working with a team of incompetents for a year and a >half. >-- >www.cotse.com - Anonymous USENET posting made easy!
Sun, 12 May 2002 03:00:00 GMT

Al Whit #6 / 25	Only Hackers Don't Document Quote: > Unfortunately with RAD you sometimes also get > Really Asinine Documentation...;-( > Radically Aggressive Deadlines > Raw Airhead Developers.. > help me out here... ;-) > Neila Rarely Any Designing, and Real-time Acronym Deployment. . . -- Al White CIBER, Inc. "Opinions expressed are my own, unless otherwise noted."
Sun, 12 May 2002 03:00:00 GMT

Jeff Scott-Turn #7 / 25	Only Hackers Don't Document Quote: >after working with a team of incompetents for a year and a >half. Took you that long to figure out they were dumb, huh ? Maybe they all spoke in acronyms and read the Times. :-) Jeff
Mon, 13 May 2002 03:00:00 GMT

funky_.. #8 / 25	Only Hackers Don't Document How does that old saying go? If you can do, do. If you can't then teach. Seriously though, in an industry where you can earn 100k plus in the private sector if you have lots of good exeprience and knowledge why would you be living on a lecturer's wage? Saying that a couple of the lecturers at my uni did know what they were on about and were there for the holidays and exposure to nice looking young females. Maybe thats just me thinking lowly of them ;) Finlay Quote: > >after working with a team of incompetents for a year and a > >half. > Took you that long to figure out they were dumb, huh ? > Maybe they all spoke in acronyms and read the Times. :-) > Jeff Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
Tue, 14 May 2002 03:00:00 GMT

Alex. Nitulesc #9 / 25	Only Hackers Don't Document I do not think that's the fault of developers. Most of them choose the simplest solution available to them (and to their level of knowledge) - spaghetti code. No planning, no general idea, no real analysis. Make it work somehow and that's all. But it's the fault of the project leaders which all too often have no idea about programming (they have some MBA credits, see ?) They do not force the developers to set standards, to be organized and to write elegent code. And that's true, VB makes it all too easy to write bad code. I am working as a consultant and as such I've changed many workplaces. Only once had I have the opportunity to have a real project leader - one who knew exactly what was going on, who was a good programmer himeself and was really involved in the project. Usually all they do is use MS Project, Visio and so on to set deadlines and create nice organizational charts. After that, the work is mainly done for them. Am I the only one which has the impression that I could do just fine, thank you, without them (the way most of them are, anyway) ? I am currently working on debugging a project made by a team which is long gone now. And it's a nightmare. Why didn't anyone "take the power" and set standards and organize the job ? In this project the "screens" (forms, that is, in mainframe parlance) have as many personalities as developers who worked on the project. And the customer, for budgetary reasons, does not want to change anything anymore... It's a shame. Quote: >Amen. Also with RAD tools such as VB, other developers start looking down >on VB and tools like it because it does attract to many poor developers. >Unfortunatly the demand is so high, it makes it so easy for them to find >jobs. I just wish colleges and schools would have qualified instructors to >teach these new developers. All the professors I ever had are from the old >school of programming and really are only teaching because they could not >keep up with the new technology. This is not a bash against any instructors >out there, I know there must be great ones, I have just never met any. My >last instructor actually asked me for a job and stated that he would love to >work for me after seeing how I developed. The class was an advanced class >of using VB and MTS to develope 3/n-tier applicaitons. >-Clint LaFever >>The saddest thing about the popularity of VB, and >>potentially its downfall, is the fact that it opened up >>programming to a wide variety of dumb shit hackers that do >>not document their code, do not understand the how-tos and >>whys of database normalization, and therefore are really >>scrubs who don't deserve to be in the same income bracket >>as real developers. >>HACKERS WRITE CODE. DEVELOPERS WRITE CODE AND >>DOCUMENTATION. >>No trolling intended. I just needed to vent some steam >>after working with a team of incompetents for a year and a >>half. >>-- >>www.cotse.com - Anonymous USENET posting made easy!
Wed, 15 May 2002 03:00:00 GMT

tripp #10 / 25	Only Hackers Don't Document i have seen VB source code for programs written by hackers, and there are some who document (they're the ones with the best programs) trippz Quote: > The saddest thing about the popularity of VB, and > potentially its downfall, is the fact that it opened up > programming to a wide variety of dumb shit hackers that do > not document their code, do not understand the how-tos and > whys of database normalization, and therefore are really > scrubs who don't deserve to be in the same income bracket > as real developers. > HACKERS WRITE CODE. DEVELOPERS WRITE CODE AND > DOCUMENTATION. > No trolling intended. I just needed to vent some steam > after working with a team of incompetents for a year and a > half. > -- > www.cotse.com - Anonymous USENET posting made easy!
Thu, 16 May 2002 03:00:00 GMT

Curtis Spendlo #11 / 25	Only Hackers Don't Document Quote: >Why didn't anyone "take the >power" and set standards and organize the job? This is sad, but so often true. A good portion depends on my clients as to what they get. If they want something "FAST!!!", then they get something fast. If they want something good, then they get it. However, one thing I suggest you do to make yourself (and your teams) better developers (not just programmers) is to continually reasses things. We sit back after every project and collect things that we like. We have a large "Preliminary Specifications" document with template software (forms, classes, etc) which we continually reuse. Some of them are code-only and some are components. This specs doc continually grows, but it contains our "best practices" (so-to-speak) and details what certain elements should be...this is how a login box should look, and here are its variants. It seems to work well so far. :) -Curtis Spendlove -Solstice Software
Fri, 17 May 2002 03:00:00 GMT

Deimo #12 / 25	Only Hackers Don't Document I've seen crappy code in several languages, so I'm hoping the reason this group is harping on VB is because this is a VB group, and not because they hate VB. I'm wary of any developer who thinks one language is better than any other and limit themselves to that language; those are the ones with the poorly-written apps. clink, clink --Deimos Quote: > The saddest thing about the popularity of VB, and > potentially its downfall, is the fact that it opened up > programming to a wide variety of dumb shit hackers that do > not document their code, do not understand the how-tos and > whys of database normalization, and therefore are really > scrubs who don't deserve to be in the same income bracket > as real developers. > HACKERS WRITE CODE. DEVELOPERS WRITE CODE AND > DOCUMENTATION. > No trolling intended. I just needed to vent some steam > after working with a team of incompetents for a year and a > half. > -- > www.cotse.com - Anonymous USENET posting made easy!
Fri, 17 May 2002 03:00:00 GMT

Larry Linso #13 / 25	Only Hackers Don't Document > I've seen crappy code in several languages, so I'm hoping the > reason this group is harping on VB is because this is a VB group, > and not because they hate VB. I'm wary of any developer who thinks > one language is better than any other and limit themselves to that > language; those are the ones with the poorly-written apps. From the "Amen Corner": "You tell 'em, brother." I'm wondering if we don't have here some of the Junior High Schoolers from the early 1990s who'd periodically post "VB is a baby language; real programmers use C.", just a little older and still sore that they have to use VB to get a job. <G> I can remember back in the late 1950s and early 1960s when the Language Wars were over a whole group of languages that are now nothing but footnotes to computer history, each touted by its adherents as being "the language that supplants all others and the only language anyone will ever need". The arguments remain the same, only the names of the languages/tools change over time. -- L. M. (Larry) Linson Access Database Examples at http://homestead.deja.com/user.accdevel (script execution must be enabled in your browser to see it) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
Sat, 18 May 2002 03:00:00 GMT

Neila Ness #14 / 25	Only Hackers Don't Document Quote: > being "the language that supplants all others and the only language > anyone will ever need". The arguments remain the same, only the names > of the languages/tools change over time. And the identities of the $%^&# infernal pasta spinners and comp.lang bigots;-) I studied fortran, Mainframe BASIC, and Pascal in a former life and have been doing VB for 3+ years now. I recently had a chance to open up the very first thing I ever wrote which became part of an application. I look at it and shivers go down my spine. It is not that it is spaghetti or anything. More that it reads and behaves like f^* FORTRAN. I spent about half a day trying to rewrite it and give it a proper object model and validation update undo routine. Arrays bear only the most pathetic superficial resemblance to arrays folks!!! ;-)))). Sometimes I feel like I am missing something because I can only (sort of) read C and have never written it. I just recently bought 3 sources Shoustrup, Yaroshenko and Petzold so I can become less of an ignorant VB programmer. I suspect that reading through them and trying to pick up the jist of what is discussed will ultimately make me a better VB programmer even if I never launch the VC development environment. Neila Quote: > > I've seen crappy code in several languages, so I'm hoping the > > reason this group is harping on VB is because this is a VB group, > > and not because they hate VB. I'm wary of any developer who thinks > > one language is better than any other and limit themselves to that > > language; those are the ones with the poorly-written apps. > From the "Amen Corner": "You tell 'em, brother." > I'm wondering if we don't have here some of the Junior High Schoolers > from the early 1990s who'd periodically post "VB is a baby language; > real programmers use C.", just a little older and still sore that they > have to use VB to get a job. <G> > I can remember back in the late 1950s and early 1960s when the Language > Wars were over a whole group of languages that are now nothing but > footnotes to computer history, each touted by its adherents as > being "the language that supplants all others and the only language > anyone will ever need". The arguments remain the same, only the names > of the languages/tools change over time. > -- > L. M. (Larry) Linson > Access Database Examples at http://homestead.deja.com/user.accdevel > (script execution must be enabled in your browser to see it) > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.
Tue, 21 May 2002 03:00:00 GMT

Michael Carto #15 / 25	Only Hackers Don't Document Quote: > I studied FORTRAN, Mainframe BASIC, Is it IBM S/360? Is it?? Quote: > and Pascal in a former life Haven't we all had it forced down our throats in college? Quote: > Sometimes I feel like I am missing something because I can > only (sort of) read C and have never written it. Beautiful language. Kernighan and Ritchie is the book to read. Quote: > I just recently bought 3 sources Shoustrup, Yaroshenko and Petzold The ARM left me cold (after years of experience in C.) Petzold? You have Appleman's API book, don't you? Quote: > me a better VB programmer even if I never launch the VC development > environment. For pure programming knowledge and fun, VC++ is not the right tool, IMNSHO. Java, may be. Or Unix-based C++ compilers. PS That should add fuel to the fire of 2 separate (and long) OT threads! PPS I mailed you the CodeFlow sample, btw. -- MikeC Please reply to the group.
Wed, 22 May 2002 03:00:00 GMT

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