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Is it reasonable to expect complex software, such as VB, to be bug
free?  I once read that some famous programmer (can't remember who)
offered $20.48 to anyone that discovered a bug in any programs that
he'd written.  Wouldn't it be nice if companies stood behind their
products with that kind of zeal?



Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
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Quote:

> Is it reasonable to expect complex software, such as VB, to be bug
> free?  I once read that some famous programmer (can't remember who)
> offered $20.48 to anyone that discovered a bug in any programs that
> he'd written.  Wouldn't it be nice if companies stood behind their
> products with that kind of zeal?

It isn't even reasonable to expect simple software to be bug free.

Ken Davis



Fri, 01 Oct 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
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Quote:


> > Is it reasonable to expect complex software, such as VB, to be bug
> > free?  I once read that some famous programmer (can't remember who)
> > offered $20.48 to anyone that discovered a bug in any programs that
> > he'd written.  Wouldn't it be nice if companies stood behind their
> > products with that kind of zeal?

> It isn't even reasonable to expect simple software to be bug free.

> Ken Davis

It is not reasonable to expect any program to be completely bug free,
but I expect software companies to take me serious when I report a bug.
Some companies do not seem to be interested in fixing known bugs in
existing releases, only in getting new mayor releases out.  I'd rather
have W95.2, VB4.1, NT 3.6 than W97 (or 98), VB5, NT4 and so on.  And
Microsoft is not the only company that ignores bugs, just the largest.

--
Ronald In 't Velt
----------------------------------------------------------------------
THE BILL GATES WEALTH CLOCK:

Bill Gates' Wealth : $1,245,122,563.66
Your family's Share: $5,334.23
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ANTISPAM:Remove the first two letters of my address to reply...



Fri, 01 Oct 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
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: THE BILL GATES WEALTH CLOCK:

: Bill Gates' Wealth : $1,245,122,563.66
: Your family's Share: $5,334.23

I wish I had my share :)

--

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Fri, 01 Oct 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
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On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:49:43 +0200, Ronald In 't Velt

Quote:


>It is not reasonable to expect any program to be completely bug free,

Why not?

--

http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/trelane/

'He will wipe away all tears from their eyes.'
                        - Rev 21:4



Sat, 02 Oct 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
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Quote:


> >On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:49:43 +0200, Ronald In 't Velt


> >>It is not reasonable to expect any program to be completely bug free,

> >Why not?

> Probably because no program ever has been. (speaking about programs
> beyond "hello world" type apps)

> If programs were typically bug-free, it would be reasonable to expect
> any individual program to be bug-free.  However, since it is not the
> norm, it is not reasonable to expect.

> So, it would be *nice* to expect, but it certainly would not be
> *reasonable* to expect.

> Have I beaten that into the ground sufficiently yet? <g>

> --
> Swap dots and ats to reply.

> What did the devil say when the first email spammer showed up in hell?
>      "There goes the neighborhood!"

> Due to a bug in my mailer, unsolicited commercial email will be
> returned to sender and sender's administrator tenfold.

Sorry to jump into this mid-way, but I have to say that with all of
Microsoft's money and resources, there is no excuse for bugs in their
products.


Sat, 02 Oct 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 BUGS BUGS BUGS!

Quote:

>On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:49:43 +0200, Ronald In 't Velt


>>It is not reasonable to expect any program to be completely bug free,

>Why not?

Probably because no program ever has been. (speaking about programs
beyond "hello world" type apps)

If programs were typically bug-free, it would be reasonable to expect
any individual program to be bug-free.  However, since it is not the
norm, it is not reasonable to expect.

So, it would be *nice* to expect, but it certainly would not be
*reasonable* to expect.

Have I beaten that into the ground sufficiently yet? <g>

--
Swap dots and ats to reply.

What did the devil say when the first email spammer showed up in hell?
     "There goes the neighborhood!"

Due to a bug in my mailer, unsolicited commercial email will be
returned to sender and sender's administrator tenfold.



Sun, 03 Oct 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 BUGS BUGS BUGS!



Quote:
> Sorry to jump into this mid-way, but I have to say that with all of
> Microsoft's money and resources, there is no excuse for bugs in their
> products.

That's an interesting point.  Actually, you can't necessarily throw more
money and resources (translation: developers and testers) at a program and
expect it to be bug-free.  In fact, I suspect that you're doing more harm
than good past a certain number of people involved (confusion factor, etc.)
 The one resource that would allow MS to iron out a lot of these bugs is
the one that they (and other software companies) don't feel they have:
time.

Perhaps we ought to have every other year be bug-resolution year: no new
features could be introduced by any software development house.  Something
tells me capitalism would not crumble.



Mon, 04 Oct 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 BUGS BUGS BUGS!

Quote:

>Sorry to jump into this mid-way, but I have to say that with all of
>Microsoft's money and resources, there is no excuse for bugs in their
>products.

In that were true, there would also be no excuse for their products
being unable to mow your lawn, tie your shoes, and tell the future.

--
Swap dots and ats to reply.

What did the devil say when the first email spammer showed up in hell?
     "There goes the neighborhood!"

Due to a bug in my mailer, flames and unsolicited commercial email
will be returned to sender and sender's administrator tenfold.



Mon, 04 Oct 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 BUGS BUGS BUGS!

Quote:


> >Sorry to jump into this mid-way, but I have to say that with all of
> >Microsoft's money and resources, there is no excuse for bugs in their
> >products.

> In that were true, there would also be no excuse for their products
> being unable to mow your lawn, tie your shoes, and tell the future.

While bugs do get in to programs, this is still no excuse for having
them.  Would we accept the same from the space shuttle crashing every
20th time due to bugs?


Mon, 04 Oct 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 BUGS BUGS BUGS!



Quote:

> Probably because no program ever has been. (speaking about programs
> beyond "hello world" type apps)
> If programs were typically bug-free, it would be reasonable to expect
> any individual program to be bug-free.  However, since it is not the
> norm, it is not reasonable to expect.

Ron, that's just not true:
http://www.fastcompany.com/06/writestuff.html

Joe



Tue, 05 Oct 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
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On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:56:07 -0500, Bill McCarty

Quote:



>> >Sorry to jump into this mid-way, but I have to say that with all of
>> >Microsoft's money and resources, there is no excuse for bugs in their
>> >products.

>> In that were true, there would also be no excuse for their products
>> being unable to mow your lawn, tie your shoes, and tell the future.

>While bugs do get in to programs, this is still no excuse for having
>them.  Would we accept the same from the space shuttle crashing every
>20th time due to bugs?

Not all bugs are fatal; witness the most recent shuttle mission that
was aborted almost immediately.

Whether NASA wants to "accept" them or not, they happen -- to space
shuttles and software.

Any major piece of software is imperfect. That's life.  Demanding the
impossible is a guarantee for disappointment.

--
Swap dots and ats to reply.

What did the devil say when the first email spammer showed up in hell?
     "There goes the neighborhood!"

Due to a bug in my mailer, flames and unsolicited commercial email
will be returned to sender and sender's administrator tenfold.



Tue, 05 Oct 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 BUGS BUGS BUGS!

Quote:


> >Sorry to jump into this mid-way, but I have to say that with all of
> >Microsoft's money and resources, there is no excuse for bugs in their
> >products.
> In that were true, there would also be no excuse for their products
> being unable to mow your lawn, tie your shoes, and tell the future.

[snip]

Well, if the aerospace flight control systems industry is
anything to judge by, while it may be possible to prove whether a
program is correct or not, the mathematical proofs are often more
complex than the programs themselves! Also, a provably correct
program usually costs around 100 times as much to develop as a
program developed using conventional techniques. I'd much rather
pay a few hundred bucks for Office, NT, or VB5 rather than tens
of thousands, even though as a result I'll have to save early and
save often! In addition, many of the bells and whistles that
customers demand these days make program proofs infernally
difficult. I don't know how I'd go about proving the correctness
of a reasonably complex event-driven Windows program. Even in
the aerospace industry, a number of companies are moving away
from program proofs in favor of reasonably tried-and-true off-
the-shelf software for such things as embedded real-time
operating systems like QNX. Bugs are simply a part of life, and
we all have to deal with them rather than moan and complain.

Of course, there are ways to minimize the impact of bugs, such as
"safe" development systems like Wirth's Oberon. I'd love to see
more of the concepts from Oberon, such as subtypes to constrain
the ranges of values that can be passed to and returned from
functions and methods, make their way into Visual Basic.

--

WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above        They're   coming  to
because  my cats have  apparently  learned to type.        take me away, ha ha!



Wed, 06 Oct 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 BUGS BUGS BUGS!

Quote:

> >>It is not reasonable to expect any program to be completely bug free,
> >Why not?

> Probably because no program ever has been. (speaking about programs
> beyond "hello world" type apps)

You are too full of shit!  Perhaps you only meant MICROSOFT PROGRAMS?
Otherwise, beginning of paragraph applies.

I've writtenprograms with over 100,000 lines of code.  After a REAL beta
test period (pre-sale, not AFTER sale like your pals at MS) no bugs
reports.

Windows is just a big bug.  Any windows SW has bugs introduced my the
Kernel - not unlike a virus looming.



Thu, 07 Oct 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 BUGS BUGS BUGS!


Quote:

>> >>It is not reasonable to expect any program to be completely bug free,
>> >Why not?
>> Probably because no program ever has been. (speaking about programs
>> beyond "hello world" type apps)
>You are too full of shit!  Perhaps you only meant MICROSOFT PROGRAMS?
>Otherwise, beginning of paragraph applies.
>I've writtenprograms with over 100,000 lines of code.  After a REAL beta
>test period (pre-sale, not AFTER sale like your pals at MS) no bugs
>reports.

Then don't program in it and shut up.  Why would you choose an OS that you hate
  There are plenty of other ones out there (and they all have their problems a
I also doubt your program was anywhere near as complex as VB or Win95 are.

Quote:
>Windows is just a big bug.  Any windows SW has bugs introduced my the
>Kernel - not unlike a virus looming.

Then don't program in it and shut up.  Why would you choose an OS that you
hate.  There are plenty of other ones out there (and they all have their
problems as well).

_______________________________________________________________________
 Bradley S. Murray       Princeton Computer Consulting  (609) 730-9100

To respond, use the address in the signature and while you're at it,
dummy up your reply address to avoid getting junk e-mail from these
scum bags who scan newsgroups to build address lists



Thu, 07 Oct 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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