What is a COBOL developer/designer 
Author Message
 What is a COBOL developer/designer

Quote:
> Sadly, programmer, programmer/analyst, code cranker, geek,
> software engineer, computer scientist, etc. is falling out of
> common usage as our industry dumbs down.  If the de-evolution
> continues, we'll lose the opposable thumb, regrow tails, and
> become "Developers" too.

     Yea verily...I started programming in BASIC in 1975...then fortran,
Cobol, Pascal, etc... then (early/mid '80's) the demand was for Lotus
1-2-3 x-commands....

May Pattern Technology Prevail!

(P.S.  I now have fun with C++ )

Cheers,
Patrick



Fri, 10 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 What is a COBOL developer/designer

Quote:



> >:>Hi,
> >:>
> >:>Let me apologize in advance if this post seems too job-oriented for this NG,
> >:>but I doubt that it would be answered at all in any "jobs" newsgroup.
> >:>
> >:>My question is basically in the subject line; when I last looked at the want
> >:>ads seriously, there were system analysts, programmers, and that nebulous
> >:>"jack of all trades" - programmer/analysts.  Now, I see many ads asking for
> >:>"COBOL developers" or "designers".
> >:>
> >:>Ok, I've assumed this was just jargon-speak (you know, like the "sanitary
> >:>maintenance technician" who mops the floors at night); I have assumed
> >:>developer, designer, and programmer/analyst were all about equivalent.
> >:>(Designer maybe leaning more towards analysis and database design).
> >:>
> >:>But I saw a couple of posts here or in the Y2K newsgroup that implied that a
> >:>"developer" was just a coder that made source code from detailed specs - very
> >:>much different from a programmer or P/A.  Well, who uses the terms "developer"
> >:>and/or "designer" and what does it mean to you?
> >:>

> >I think that 'developer' & 'designer' are terms that HR and recruiters made
> >up.  I've never heard anyone refer to himself/herself as a designer or
> >developer.

> >Maybe they use them to mean a programmer/analyst who works on development
> >projects (as opposed to maintenace projects.)

> >Rae

> >Rae B. Creedle

> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >Old mainframe programmers never die . . .
> >they just get Warped.

> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> I hear the PeeCeeWeeNees calling themselves "Developers" all the
> time.  It's because a non-trivial fraction of them cannot
> program.  They "mouse-up" or "click-up" applications and have no
> idea what goes on under the hood.  To some of them, the user
> interface is it, the rest is magic, comes on a CD from a factory
> somewhere in California.

> I first noticed this aberration around NeXT-WeeNees.  We're
> "Developers", they'd say.  Then the chit-chatters (Visual Works
> Smalltalkers) picked it up.

> Sadly, programmer, programmer/analyst, code cranker, geek,
> software engineer, computer scientist, etc. is falling out of
> common usage as our industry dumbs down.  If the de-evolution
> continues, we'll lose the opposable thumb, regrow tails, and
> become "Developers" too.

> Cory Hamasaki  "S/370 machine language Developer."

        Like all words, Cory, "developer" has been debased.  Around here
(Seattle area), it's sort of understood that it refers to people who
deal with MS Windows internals and/or C/C++.  Generally but certainly
not always these people have degrees in what I would call a rigorous
area, on the order of math or CS.  The Microsoft culture being what it
is, this term has proliferated throughout the industry through the years
and suffered somewhat.  By the way just as an interesting pastime, you
might want to compare the API for WinNT to the MVS system call library.
You tell me which one you think is more complex.  You could even do it
rigorously, as follows

        OS Complexity Index = Number of system calls * Average number of
parameters per call * Change Index

        The Change index is the number of major revisons to the OS per year.

JR



Fri, 10 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 What is a COBOL developer/designer


Quote:

>:>Hi,
>:>
>:>Let me apologize in advance if this post seems too job-oriented for this NG,
>:>but I doubt that it would be answered at all in any "jobs" newsgroup.
>:>
>:>My question is basically in the subject line; when I last looked at the want
>:>ads seriously, there were system analysts, programmers, and that nebulous
>:>"jack of all trades" - programmer/analysts.  Now, I see many ads asking for
>:>"COBOL developers" or "designers".
>:>
>:>Ok, I've assumed this was just jargon-speak (you know, like the "sanitary
>:>maintenance technician" who mops the floors at night); I have assumed
>:>developer, designer, and programmer/analyst were all about equivalent.  
>:>(Designer maybe leaning more towards analysis and database design).
>:>
>:>But I saw a couple of posts here or in the Y2K newsgroup that implied that a
>:>"developer" was just a coder that made source code from detailed specs - very
>:>much different from a programmer or P/A.  Well, who uses the terms "developer"
>:>and/or "designer" and what does it mean to you?
>:>

>I think that 'developer' & 'designer' are terms that HR and recruiters made
>up.  I've never heard anyone refer to himself/herself as a designer or
>developer.

>Maybe they use them to mean a programmer/analyst who works on development
>projects (as opposed to maintenace projects.)

>Rae

>Rae B. Creedle

>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Old mainframe programmers never die . . .
>they just get Warped.

>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I hear the PeeCeeWeeNees calling themselves "Developers" all the
time.  It's because a non-trivial fraction of them cannot
program.  They "mouse-up" or "click-up" applications and have no
idea what goes on under the hood.  To some of them, the user
interface is it, the rest is magic, comes on a CD from a factory
somewhere in California.

I first noticed this aberration around NeXT-WeeNees.  We're
"Developers", they'd say.  Then the chit-chatters (Visual Works
Smalltalkers) picked it up.

Sadly, programmer, programmer/analyst, code cranker, geek,
software engineer, computer scientist, etc. is falling out of
common usage as our industry dumbs down.  If the de-evolution
continues, we'll lose the opposable thumb, regrow tails, and
become "Developers" too.

Cory Hamasaki  "S/370 machine language Developer."



Sat, 11 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 What is a COBOL developer/designer



Quote:



big snip
> I hear the PeeCeeWeeNees calling themselves "Developers" all the
> time.  It's because a non-trivial fraction of them cannot
> program.  They "mouse-up" or "click-up" applications and have no
> idea what goes on under the hood.  To some of them, the user
> interface is it, the rest is magic, comes on a CD from a factory
> somewhere in California.

> I first noticed this aberration around NeXT-WeeNees.  We're
> "Developers", they'd say.  Then the chit-chatters (Visual Works
> Smalltalkers) picked it up.

> Sadly, programmer, programmer/analyst, code cranker, geek,
> software engineer, computer scientist, etc. is falling out of
> common usage as our industry dumbs down.  If the de-evolution
> continues, we'll lose the opposable thumb, regrow tails, and
> become "Developers" too.

Cory, it seems that there are fewer numbers of us who really know what's
"under the hood".

I remember during the early days of the 360 OSs which had loads of compiler
bugs.  Once, I tracked down a different MAJOR compiler bug every day for 2
weeks.  Reading core dumps and assembly listings was de rigeur.

Remove the  '-'   from orion-data for sending email to me.


Orion Data Systems

Solicitations to me must be pre-approved in writing
by me after soliciitor pays $1,000 US per incident.
Solicitations sent to me are proof you accept this
notice and will send a certified check forthwith.



Sat, 11 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 What is a COBOL developer/designer

<<SNIP>>

Quote:

> Sadly, programmer, programmer/analyst, code cranker, geek,
> software engineer, computer scientist, etc. is falling out of
> common usage as our industry dumbs down.  If the de-evolution
> continues, we'll lose the opposable thumb, regrow tails, and
> become "Developers" too.

> Cory Hamasaki  "S/370 machine language Developer."

Cory

I guess that makes me lucky then as my Org. calls us all generically
"Systems Engineers" from code-kutters to systems analysts.

Regards
Douglas
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
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reprehensible individuals/companies who send unsolicited email to
people who have to pay per K for the privelege!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed here, though they be many and (most probably)
wrong, are not those of my employer or any client organisation. ;-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------



Sat, 11 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 What is a COBOL developer/designer

Excellent method of comparing operating system complexity. Probably,
some method of 'subtracting' should be added to isolate the GUI.
Microsoft is probably the 'culprit' in the Developer/Designer
designation abstraction. But, it is commonplace in the micro industry to
'redesign the wheel' in terms ... and probably necessary; vis a vis,
good way to tell mainframers from microplaners.

Gee, and I used to think UNIX insisting on the term 'file' versus IBM
insisting on the term 'data set' was funny. Returning to the original
topic, tho, micro COBOLers are probably 'developers/designers' and
mainframe COBOLers are probably 'working under legacy generated job
designations'.

In conclusion, does the cartoon strip Dilbert ring a bell ?

Mig Killer and Main Framer
:D



Sat, 11 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 What is a COBOL developer/designer


Quote:
>    Like all words, Cory, "developer" has been debased.  Around here
>(Seattle area), it's sort of understood that it refers to people who
>deal with MS Windows internals and/or C/C++.  Generally but certainly
>not always these people have degrees in what I would call a rigorous
>area, on the order of math or CS.  The Microsoft culture being what it
>is, this term has proliferated throughout the industry through the years
>and suffered somewhat.  By the way just as an interesting pastime, you
>might want to compare the API for WinNT to the MVS system call library.
>You tell me which one you think is more complex.  You could even do it
>rigorously, as follows

>    OS Complexity Index = Number of system calls * Average number of
>parameters per call * Change Index

>    The Change index is the number of major revisons to the OS per year.

>JR

Interesting concept but you'd be comparing WNT calls and
parameters that set fonts, points, colors, position on the screen
against things like MVS.IOS.VSAM.IDCAMS.REPRO(parameterlist).

Slam in the MVS Open library, the MVS WNT library, etc and MVS
wins hands down.  If you restrict the comparison to an arbitrary
core required to function effectively, for example the MVS
assembler supervisor call Macro instructions, ie STIMER, CHAP,
DEQ, MVS looks small, slim, and simple.  Don't let that fool you.
MVS is industrial strength, WNT is not there yet.   Man v.
System, NerdsToy.

For a Rigorous Evaluation Methodology, I'd add a factor for:

       Merit of the Action to an Enterprise.

In the case of WNT, we'd have fractional M values.

Cory Hamasaki  "Y2K S/370 machine language Methodologist"



Sat, 11 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 What is a COBOL developer/designer

Why should it surprise you that people who can't program call themselves
developers? Look at all the SMP jockeys who call themselves systems
programmers, the illiterates who call themselves journalists, the
incoherent who call themselves teachers, etc. Like any field, the
incompetent will attempt to mask their incompetence and everyone will
try to inflate their title. It doesn't help that the marketting people
will debase your title for you if you don't do it for yourself.

This is just a reflection of the society at large.

Quote:

> I hear the PeeCeeWeeNees calling themselves "Developers" all the
> time.  It's because a non-trivial fraction of them cannot
> program.  They "mouse-up" or "click-up" applications and have no
> idea what goes on under the hood.  To some of them, the user
> interface is it, the rest is magic, comes on a CD from a factory
> somewhere in California.

> I first noticed this aberration around NeXT-WeeNees.  We're
> "Developers", they'd say.  Then the chit-chatters (Visual Works
> Smalltalkers) picked it up.

> Sadly, programmer, programmer/analyst, code cranker, geek,
> software engineer, computer scientist, etc. is falling out of
> common usage as our industry dumbs down.  If the de-evolution
> continues, we'll lose the opposable thumb, regrow tails, and
> become "Developers" too.

> Cory Hamasaki  "S/370 machine language Developer."

--

                        Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
                        Senior Software SE

The values in from and reply-to are for the benefit of spammers:
reply to domain eds.com, user msustys1.smetz or to domain gsg.eds.com,
user smetz.



Sat, 11 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 What is a COBOL developer/designer


Quote:
>I hear the PeeCeeWeeNees calling themselves "Developers" all the
>time.  It's because a non-trivial fraction of them cannot
>program.  They "mouse-up" or "click-up" applications and have no
>idea what goes on under the hood.  To some of them, the user
>interface is it, the rest is magic, comes on a CD from a factory
>somewhere in California.

>I first noticed this aberration around NeXT-WeeNees.  We're
>"Developers", they'd say.  Then the chit-chatters (Visual Works
>Smalltalkers) picked it up.

Well...  I don't think "developer" is such a newbie term.  Remember
those old Readers Comment Forms on the back of IBM manuals ?  The
return address was Systems Development Division, PO Box nnn,
Poughkeepsie, NY.  The people who wrote MVT and MVS and so on were
called developers, and while there may have been some "point and
click" precursors even in those days, many of them were serious
assembler types.

I spend about half my time writing new 370/390 assembler code for a
living, and I am called a developer.  I spend the other half doing C
and C++ (blech!), but I don't do any point & click stuff.

Quote:
>Sadly, programmer, programmer/analyst, code cranker, geek,
>software engineer, computer scientist, etc. is falling out of
>common usage as our industry dumbs down.  If the de-evolution
>continues, we'll lose the opposable thumb, regrow tails, and
>become "Developers" too.

Terms like code cranker, geek, and nerd were never used in IBM's day -
the company was just too stuffy for that.  The term
"programmer/analyst" shrieks "applications" to me, "systems
programmer" says "assembler geek employed by a customer", and
"developer" says "assembler geek employed by a vendor in a central
(rather than field) position".

The term I object to is "software engineer".  The vast majority of
those with that silly title don't have engineering degrees, and even
if they do, what they do for a living is not engineering by any
stretch.

Cheers... Tony Harminc

I speak only for myself, etc.



Sat, 11 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 What is a COBOL developer/designer

On Tuesday, 97/06/24, Ian Larsen wrote to All about "What is a COBOL
developer/designer" as follows:

IL> > Sadly, programmer, programmer/analyst, code cranker, geek,
IL> > software engineer, computer scientist, etc. is falling out of
IL> > common usage as our industry dumbs down.  If the de-evolution
IL> > continues, we'll lose the opposable thumb, regrow tails, and
IL> > become "Developers" too.
IL> >
IL> > Cory Hamasaki  "S/370 machine language Developer."
IL>
IL> Cory
IL>
IL> I guess that makes me lucky then as my Org. calls us all
IL> generically "Systems Engineers" from code-kutters to systems
IL> analysts.

I was with EDS for almost 5 years, back in the 1980's.

Some Systems Engineers are more exalted than others. COBOL writing
SE's are just above the janitor in status, who is above the SED's
(COBOL trainees).

On the other hand, Software SE's (i.e. systems programmers) are rather
more respected and Senior Software SE's call most of the technical
shots in the company. Consulting Software SE's answer directly to God,
because He seeks their advice.

However, for the last couple of years, I have been a "developer". I
have not noticed any difference, other than the growing technical
ignorance of my peers.

Regards

Dave
<Team PL/I>

 * KWQ/2 1.2i * "We're not just talking ALIENS - we're talking AUSTRaliens" -
ATG
--
Please remove the '$' in the from line before reply via email.
Anti-UCE filter in operation.



Sat, 11 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 What is a COBOL developer/designer

Any title could be overused.

I don't like consultants because they really inflate the titles of their
people.  They'll call trainees "programmers" and so on up.

I think a key qualification of any programmer is if the person can THINK!
(Like Tom Watson's old sign.)

Much of programming is dealing with strange situations--a new language,
new problem, new facility, etc.  A good programmer can figure out what to
do, know what questions to ask, where to look in the manual, and how to
make intelligent experiements if need be.

Regretfully, I'm stuck with someone with 5 years COBOL experience who
can't program his way out of a paper bag----because he won't (or can't) THINK.



Sun, 12 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 What is a COBOL developer/designer



: Any title could be overused.
:
: I don't like consultants because they really inflate the titles of their
: people.  They'll call trainees "programmers" and so on up.
:
:
: I think a key qualification of any programmer is if the person can THINK!
: (Like Tom Watson's old sign.)
:
: Much of programming is dealing with strange situations--a new language,
: new problem, new facility, etc.  A good programmer can figure out what to
: do, know what questions to ask, where to look in the manual, and how to
: make intelligent experiements if need be.
:
:
: Regretfully, I'm stuck with someone with 5 years COBOL experience who
: can't program his way out of a paper bag----because he won't (or can't)
THINK.
:

Lisa or Jeff, (which is it?  Lisa?  Jeff?)
Please don't generalize and flame all consultants -- many, many
non-consulting
companies have grossly inflated the human resources' titles for decades.
(Apple Computer's "Guru" titles, etc.)  It is a sign of the times we live
in.

All of your statements about programming (above) are true in a more
general sense about life itself (new, strange situations requiring one to
figure out, know, look, etc.)  They are not unique to programming.

However, the question regarding COBOL is off-topic for this newsgroup,
isn't it?
("We now return you to your regularly scheduled ASM370 newsgroup.")

--
Tom Schmidt
Madison, WI



Tue, 14 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 What is a COBOL developer/designer

Quote:






> big snip
> > I hear the PeeCeeWeeNees calling themselves "Developers" all the
> > time.  It's because a non-trivial fraction of them cannot
> > program.  They "mouse-up" or "click-up" applications and have no
> > idea what goes on under the hood.  To some of them, the user
> > interface is it, the rest is magic, comes on a CD from a factory
> > somewhere in California.

> > I first noticed this aberration around NeXT-WeeNees.  We're
> > "Developers", they'd say.  Then the chit-chatters (Visual Works
> > Smalltalkers) picked it up.

> > Sadly, programmer, programmer/analyst, code cranker, geek,
> > software engineer, computer scientist, etc. is falling out of
> > common usage as our industry dumbs down.  If the de-evolution
> > continues, we'll lose the opposable thumb, regrow tails, and
> > become "Developers" too.

> Cory, it seems that there are fewer numbers of us who really know what's
> "under the hood".

> I remember during the early days of the 360 OSs which had loads of compiler
> bugs.  Once, I tracked down a different MAJOR compiler bug every day for 2
> weeks.  Reading core dumps and assembly listings was de rigeur.

Interestingly, despite all these new "development" gadgets, the
throughput
and reliability of some applications is less reliable than using a good
flowchart and eyeballs.  I can just visualize having to IPL the
mainframe
every 4 hours because someone's CICS app leaked memory all over the
place.

And, a recent Computerworld (or, is that Rumorworld?) mentioned that
Microsoft plans to introduce a file server with "thin clients" (a
diskless
workstation); now, where have I heard this idea before?  We get a high-
powered computer, centralize the applications, and tie in diskless
workstations to prevent virus-introduction?  It rings a bell, I just
can't seem to place it...



Wed, 15 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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