ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast??? 
Author Message
 ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast???



Quote:
> Hello:

> I read somewhere a few lines about a personal computer called IBM
PC/AT-370.
> It looks like an ordinary AT class IBM PC only that supposedly it was
> programmed in 370 assembly language.

> - Was there such a machine?
Yes.

> - Was the architecture implemented by simulation or did it have a
> 370-compatible microprocessor in it?

370-processor (and memory) on 3 extra cards.
Quote:

> - What was its main use: Offline mainframe development, Education, ...

???
Mainly no-use, I think.  Did they ever sell many of it?
Quote:

> - What OS did it run?

A version of VM, IIRC.
Quote:

> - What are the prospects of getting such a beast these days?

Forget the original.
Now you can get a PC/390 server, containing an ordinary PC (or PS2) with
extra card(s) (Microchannel or PCI) with full-blown 390 processor (5 MIPS).
Runs standard OS/390.  I/O simulated in OS/2.
Price inclusive MVS software around $60K.  Note: cards not sold separately.
You'll find all about it on IBM web pages.  Manuals also.
Disclaimer: It has been a while since I looked, so some info may be out of
date.
Quote:

> Thanks,

> Mayer



Fri, 09 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast???
Hello:

I read somewhere a few lines about a personal computer called IBM PC/AT-370.
It looks like an ordinary AT class IBM PC only that supposedly it was
programmed in 370 assembly language.

- Was there such a machine?

- Was the architecture implemented by simulation or did it have a
370-compatible microprocessor in it?

- What was its main use: Offline mainframe development, Education, ... ???

- What OS did it run?

- What are the prospects of getting such a beast these days?

Thanks,

Mayer



Sat, 10 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast???

Quote:

>Hello:

>I read somewhere a few lines about a personal computer called IBM PC/AT-370.
>It looks like an ordinary AT class IBM PC only that supposedly it was
>programmed in 370 assembly language.

>- Was there such a machine?

Yes there was.

Quote:

>- Was the architecture implemented by simulation or did it have a
>370-compatible microprocessor in it?

It was an add-in card. It contained a Motorola 68000 processor plus memory.
The 68000 emulated the S/370 instruction set.

Quote:

>- What was its main use: Offline mainframe development, Education, ... ???

>- What OS did it run?

As I recall, it ran a special version of VM/370 ONLY!

Quote:

>- What are the prospects of getting such a beast these days?

I don't know, but I'd say not likely. But why?
IBM now has the P/390 which works with the newer Pentium class systems.
It is a add-in card as well. I don't know the internals. It can run ANY
S/390 system (OS/390, VM, and VSE). Try going to
http://www1.s390.ibm.com/products/p390/
for more information. Unfortunately, the PC Opsys MUST be OS/2 Warp. From
what I can tell Warp does the actual I/O to the PC hardware (console,
hard drives, etc.)
Quote:
>Thanks,

>Mayer



Sat, 10 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast???

Quote:
>Hello:

>I read somewhere a few lines about a personal computer called IBM PC/AT-370.
>It looks like an ordinary AT class IBM PC only that supposedly it was
>programmed in 370 assembly language.

>- Was there such a machine?

>- Was the architecture implemented by simulation or did it have a
>370-compatible microprocessor in it?

>- What was its main use: Offline mainframe development, Education, ... ???

>- What OS did it run?

>- What are the prospects of getting such a beast these days?

>Thanks,

>Mayer

First, let me make it perfectly clear that I am not speaking
for my company, and that all opinions expressed here are strictly
my own.

Yes, there was such a machine.  Actually, there was a XT-370 and a
follow-on AT-370, both made by IBM.  They were standard XT and AT
machines, except with a couple of custom cards installed.  I'll
talk primarily about the XT-370 since that's the only one I've had
experience with.

It consisted of an XT with a 3270 adapter card installed in it, and
two 370 cards (in adjacent slots since they were cabled together).
The 370 cards implemented 4M of virtual 370 storage, using 512K of
real memory.  The 370 storage was memory mapped into the PC address
space, starting at 256K (e.g., the first 256K was PC memory, and
the rest was 370 memory).  The machine was booted normally as an XT
and could be used as one.  When the 370 program was run, it turned
it into a 370.

I seem to remember that the 370 processor was formed from a
specially modified Motorola 68000 processor.  Note that the 370
did not implement the entire 370 instruction set.  Only (most of?)
the unpriviledged instructions were implemented.  For an operating
system, it ran something called VM/PC, which was loosely based on
VM/SP (Release 3?).  It only supported a single user at a time.

Most 370 application programs would run on it (HASM, etc.), although
VERY slowly.  I seem to remember performance numbers of about
50KIPS, but that's only a very rough guess.

I'm not sure what the main use was.  I think some of them were used
in educational settings.  I doubt very many were used in production,
due to their performance, but I could be wrong.  I used one in a
development environment a bit, but only a bit since it was so slow.

As for the chances of finding on, I expect that they'd be rather
hard to find.  And, even if you did, I doubt that they'd be good
for much more than a museum due to their performance (I bought one
for $10 a few years ago, and they threw in the XT for free!  Or,
was it the other way around?).

However, IBM currently makes a P/390, which is a complete ESA/390
processor, with up to 128M of real memory, on a card which fits into
a PC.  This runs either MVS/ESA, OS/390, or VM/ESA.  These cards
have a significantly better performance.  I'm told that quite a
few of these are used in production, and even more are being used
for Y2K testing.  I've used one of these, and there is NO difference
between them and a mainframe!

Dave

P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them.



Sat, 10 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast???

Quote:

>I read somewhere a few lines about a personal computer called IBM PC/AT-370.
>It looks like an ordinary AT class IBM PC only that supposedly it was
>programmed in 370 assembly language.

>- Was there such a machine?

Yes. There is still a similar machine, the P/390.

Quote:
>- Was the architecture implemented by simulation or did it have a
>370-compatible microprocessor in it?

Yes. It had a special processor (a modified 68000?) as well as emulation
software for the more complex instructions.

Quote:
>- What was its main use: Offline mainframe development, Education, ... ???

Toy?

Quote:
>- What OS did it run?

VM

Quote:
>- What are the prospects of getting such a beast these days?

Your local IBM representative can sell you a P/390.
http://www.s390.ibm.com/products/p390/

--
No electrons were injured in the preparation of this message.



Sat, 10 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast???

Quote:

>I read somewhere a few lines about a personal computer called IBM PC/AT-370.
>It looks like an ordinary AT class IBM PC only that supposedly it was
>programmed in 370 assembly language.

Yes, they exist, pretty much the way the other posts say, and are about
that slow.  Well, close to a 360/40, which I have some timing numbers
for.

I am interesting in finding P/370, which is the next machine up, but
before the P/390.  As I understand, it is not Y2K compliant, so they
should be appearing on the surplus market for low prices.  I haven't seen
any yet, though.  

The XT/370 runs a version of VM called VM/PC which is half 370 code half
8088 code.   The two halves talk through interrupts.  It runs a stripped,
but all 370 code version of CMS.  It doesn't IPL like a real 370.

The P/370 should be pretty close to a real 370, including IPLing a real
OS directly off disk.  There is even a channel attach board to attach
real bus and tag devices to.  

-- glen



Sat, 10 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast???

Quote:

>>I read somewhere a few lines about a personal computer called IBM PC/AT-370.
>>It looks like an ordinary AT class IBM PC only that supposedly it was
>>programmed in 370 assembly language.

>Yes, they exist, pretty much the way the other posts say, and are about
>that slow.  Well, close to a 360/40, which I have some timing numbers
>for.

>I am interesting in finding P/370, which is the next machine up, but
>before the P/390.  As I understand, it is not Y2K compliant, so they
>should be appearing on the surplus market for low prices.  I haven't seen
>any yet, though.

>The XT/370 runs a version of VM called VM/PC which is half 370 code half
>8088 code.   The two halves talk through interrupts.  It runs a stripped,
>but all 370 code version of CMS.  It doesn't IPL like a real 370.

>The P/370 should be pretty close to a real 370, including IPLing a real
>OS directly off disk.  There is even a channel attach board to attach
>real bus and tag devices to.

>-- glen

Actually, you skipped a generation.  The sequence went XT/370, AT/370,
7437, P/370, P/390.  The 7437 was a box with the 370 processor in it,
and 16M of real memory.  The box was about the size of an IBM PS/2
model 80, which is what they usually connected to.  The performance
of the 7437 was significantly better than the XT/370, but not nearly
as good as the P/370.

The P/370 is a real 370, and runs either VM/SP, or VM/ESA-370 Feature
(Note the '-370 Feature').  This is the same OS that runs on the big
machines, unchanged, unaltered, as it is.  This is in contrast to the
XT/370 which required a very special operating system called VM/PC,
which was very loosely based off of VM/SP 3, and was definitely NOT
what was run on the big machines.

Dave

P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them.

P.P.S. I'm running a P/370, and it's a very nice machine.  And, I've
used P/390s, and they're even nicer!  It's nice to have a mainframe under
my desk.



Sat, 10 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast???
The P390s are still available sold through vendors.  There are several
such vendors, and they are listed on the P390 web pages.  Start at
http://www.s390.ibm.com.  I believe that most of the listings today are
for the S390 Integrated Server which is its current incarnation.

There was also an R390 which ran in an AIX box and used AIX for its
I/O.

Most of the S390 IS vendors can also sell you a P390 including system.
It relies on a strict set of the PCI 2.1 rules so not all systems will
work with it.

If you get one, you can also request the 370 microcode set from IBM and
IPL it as a 370.  However, AFAIK, all 370 operating systems will quit
working in 7 months or so.  Most will NOT IPL after 1/1/2000.  

We are currently using 3 of the P390s for development work and demos.
It is great to take to a trade show to show off mainframe software.

Lloyd Fuller


Quote:

>>Hello:

>>I read somewhere a few lines about a personal computer called IBM PC/AT-370.
>>It looks like an ordinary AT class IBM PC only that supposedly it was
>>programmed in 370 assembly language.

>>- Was there such a machine?

>>- Was the architecture implemented by simulation or did it have a
>>370-compatible microprocessor in it?

>>- What was its main use: Offline mainframe development, Education, ... ???

>>- What OS did it run?

>>- What are the prospects of getting such a beast these days?

>>Thanks,

>>Mayer

>First, let me make it perfectly clear that I am not speaking
>for my company, and that all opinions expressed here are strictly
>my own.

>Yes, there was such a machine.  Actually, there was a XT-370 and a
>follow-on AT-370, both made by IBM.  They were standard XT and AT
>machines, except with a couple of custom cards installed.  I'll
>talk primarily about the XT-370 since that's the only one I've had
>experience with.

>It consisted of an XT with a 3270 adapter card installed in it, and
>two 370 cards (in adjacent slots since they were cabled together).
>The 370 cards implemented 4M of virtual 370 storage, using 512K of
>real memory.  The 370 storage was memory mapped into the PC address
>space, starting at 256K (e.g., the first 256K was PC memory, and
>the rest was 370 memory).  The machine was booted normally as an XT
>and could be used as one.  When the 370 program was run, it turned
>it into a 370.

>I seem to remember that the 370 processor was formed from a
>specially modified Motorola 68000 processor.  Note that the 370
>did not implement the entire 370 instruction set.  Only (most of?)
>the unpriviledged instructions were implemented.  For an operating
>system, it ran something called VM/PC, which was loosely based on
>VM/SP (Release 3?).  It only supported a single user at a time.

>Most 370 application programs would run on it (HASM, etc.), although
>VERY slowly.  I seem to remember performance numbers of about
>50KIPS, but that's only a very rough guess.

>I'm not sure what the main use was.  I think some of them were used
>in educational settings.  I doubt very many were used in production,
>due to their performance, but I could be wrong.  I used one in a
>development environment a bit, but only a bit since it was so slow.

>As for the chances of finding on, I expect that they'd be rather
>hard to find.  And, even if you did, I doubt that they'd be good
>for much more than a museum due to their performance (I bought one
>for $10 a few years ago, and they threw in the XT for free!  Or,
>was it the other way around?).

>However, IBM currently makes a P/390, which is a complete ESA/390
>processor, with up to 128M of real memory, on a card which fits into
>a PC.  This runs either MVS/ESA, OS/390, or VM/ESA.  These cards
>have a significantly better performance.  I'm told that quite a
>few of these are used in production, and even more are being used
>for Y2K testing.  I've used one of these, and there is NO difference
>between them and a mainframe!

>Dave

>P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them.



Sat, 10 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast???

Quote:

> It was an add-in card. It contained a Motorola 68000 processor plus memory.
> The 68000 emulated the S/370 instruction set.

The cad had two 68000s, one stock and one with special "microcode" to
simulate the S/370 problem state instructions. You couldn't run a stock
S/370 operating system, only VM/PC.

Quote:
> I don't know, but I'd say not likely. But why?
> IBM now has the P/390 which works with the newer Pentium class systems.

Absolutely. I can't imagine wanting the old PC/XT-370 and PC/AT-370,
given what's available today.

--

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
Reply to host nsf (dot) gov, user smetz



Sat, 10 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast???
My contribution to setting the record straight:

Yes there was a P370.

Yes, as distributed by IBM it supported only VM, but only because there
was no support for CKD DASD in the I/O simulation code.  Otherwise, the
VM system and simulated hardware was identical to a stock VM system.

An after-market company (who shall remain nameless because I can't
remember the name) provided CKD emulation that allowed MVS to work.

My colleague and I *personally* took a MVS/370 system that ran as a
guest on a 4341 under VM/SP 5 and brought it up on a P/370 system (a
PS/2 Model P75 ("P" for portable - hah!)).  We also ran TSO.  [picture
this:  an Intel 486/33 providing the I/O for TSO running under MVS
running under VM running under OS/2.]

Functionally, this system behaved indistinguishably from the 4341 that
it came from.  We even managed to simulate the virtual CTCAs that used
to go between VM and the guest MVS (for running JES2 NJE).

This system is still running today, although it feels a little sluggish
at times ;-)

-trg

Quote:

> >Hello:

> >I read somewhere a few lines about a personal computer called IBM PC/AT-370.
> >It looks like an ordinary AT class IBM PC only that supposedly it was
> >programmed in 370 assembly language.

> >- Was there such a machine?

> Yes there was.

> >- Was the architecture implemented by simulation or did it have a
> >370-compatible microprocessor in it?

> It was an add-in card. It contained a Motorola 68000 processor plus memory.
> The 68000 emulated the S/370 instruction set.

> >- What was its main use: Offline mainframe development, Education, ... ???

> >- What OS did it run?

> As I recall, it ran a special version of VM/370 ONLY!

--
==========
Trevor Grove
Consulting Researcher, Computer Systems Group, and Adjunct Lecturer,
Department of Computer Science
University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario,  CANADA  N2L 3G1
Voice: +1 519 888 4679   Facsimile: +1 519 746 5422   E-mail:

==========


Sun, 11 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast???


Quote:
> > I don't know, but I'd say not likely. But why?
> > IBM now has the P/390 which works with the newer Pentium class systems.

> Absolutely. I can't imagine wanting the old PC/XT-370 and PC/AT-370,
> given what's available today.

Ok. I'll explain: I would like to be able to learn/practice 370 assembly
language, but don't have access to an IBM 370. I don't know what IBM charges
for S390, but I'm sure I don't have that kind of money ... :) I have the
a370 package, but I don't understand its IO and would like something under
Windows ...

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Mayer



Tue, 13 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast???
How about Tachyon Software's cross-assembler
and IDE for the PC?

Judy Anderson
Product Development
Advanced Software Technologies Company, Ltd

Quote:


>> > I don't know, but I'd say not likely. But why?
>> > IBM now has the P/390 which works with the newer Pentium class systems.

>> Absolutely. I can't imagine wanting the old PC/XT-370 and PC/AT-370,
>> given what's available today.

>Ok. I'll explain: I would like to be able to learn/practice 370 assembly
>language, but don't have access to an IBM 370. I don't know what IBM
charges
>for S390, but I'm sure I don't have that kind of money ... :) I have the
>a370 package, but I don't understand its IO and would like something under
>Windows ...

>Any suggestions?

>Thanks,

>Mayer



Tue, 13 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast???

Quote:


> > > I don't know, but I'd say not likely. But why?
> > > IBM now has the P/390 which works with the newer Pentium class systems.

> > Absolutely. I can't imagine wanting the old PC/XT-370 and PC/AT-370,
> > given what's available today.

> Ok. I'll explain: I would like to be able to learn/practice 370 assembly
> language, but don't have access to an IBM 370. I don't know what IBM charges
> for S390, but I'm sure I don't have that kind of money ... :) I have the
> a370 package, but I don't understand its IO and would like something under
> Windows ...

> Any suggestions?

> Thanks,

> Mayer

You may want to look at Tachyon Software's Tachyon Operating System and
390 emulator.    We've found it to be a great asset in our efforts...  (and,
it's much
more cost effective than a P/390.)

Take a look at http://www.tachyonsoft.com/tachyon

--

Get your mainframe (370) `C' compiler at http://www.dignus.com



Tue, 13 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast???
Cross posted to comp.os.tpf

I still suggest you to use PC/370 emulator. It is for free, it gives you a
good understanding of the overall 370 instructions, it has a primitive macro
processor, and the best part is that it is free .. :)

Also, if you like to test drive TPF programs, Ahmdall has a PC/TPF emulator
you can download from their web site that is pretty interesting. ....

Andre Rosenthal - moderator for comp.os.tpf


Quote:


> > > I don't know, but I'd say not likely. But why?
> > > IBM now has the P/390 which works with the newer Pentium class
systems.

> > Absolutely. I can't imagine wanting the old PC/XT-370 and PC/AT-370,
> > given what's available today.

> Ok. I'll explain: I would like to be able to learn/practice 370 assembly
> language, but don't have access to an IBM 370. I don't know what IBM
charges
> for S390, but I'm sure I don't have that kind of money ... :) I have the
> a370 package, but I don't understand its IO and would like something under
> Windows ...

> Any suggestions?

> Thanks,

> Mayer



Tue, 13 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 ibm pc/370 -- what is this beast???

Quote:
>The cad had two 68000s, one stock and one with special "microcode" to
>simulate the S/370 problem state instructions.

Yes and also an Intel '87 to provide floating point.  How they mapped
360 Hex based floats onto the Intel bit based floats I'll likely never
know . . .  I believe it was a stock 8087 and not a hacked microcode
version.
--
Kevin G. Rhoads, Ph.D. (Linearity is a convenient fiction.)




Mon, 19 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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