Stupid Question 101 
Author Message
 Stupid Question 101

I'm an old mainframer which was {*filter*}ped by the PC industry
for a number of years, and I'm trying to get back up to
speed and launch a new career.  I've had a number of organizations
asking for asm370 training, so I'm trying to write a class.
So a lot of stupid questions:

1) Is there a forum for AS/400 (ok, I know its not exactly related)?
2) Is there a cheap cross compiler (runs on PC generates something
   like 370 code).  Nothing too fancy, don't even need macros, though
   that would be nice.  Would be great to be able to link on the
   mainframe and actually get it running.
3) Is there a non-IBM document that discusses the SVC calls?
4) Is the object file format documented anywhere.  I'd like to be
   able to contrast it with the different exe formats in the PC
   industry.
5) Anyone play with this P/370 thing (4381 chip in a PS/2 mod 95 box).
   I'm thinking that would make a great lab/teaching machine.  
   Actually getting time on a corporate system, or even time sharing
   is tough.
6) Speaking of time sharing, is there a list of organizations that
   sell time?  I'm not convenced that a P/370 can do all that is
   needed.
7) What's your favorite books or mags for 370 programming stuff.
   When I left the industry a book by Kuo was the highest stuff,
   I bet its out of print by now ;-)

Sorry for all the stupid questions.
Any help would greatly be appreciated.

Sincerely,
Glen Clark
ESDL, Inc.



Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:56:11 GMT  
 Stupid Question 101

Quote:

>2) Is there a cheap cross compiler (runs on PC generates something
>   like 370 code).  Nothing too fancy, don't even need macros, though
>   that would be nice.  Would be great to be able to link on the
>   mainframe and actually get it running.

Have you considered Micro Focus' 370 Assembler Development
Environment? That's not the product's name, and it probably isn't
cheap. However, it apparently does a complete job of simulating
the mainframe environment.

Quote:
>3) Is there a non-IBM document that discusses the SVC calls?
>4) Is the object file format documented anywhere.  I'd like to be
>   able to contrast it with the different exe formats in the PC
>   industry.

It is documented, but only in IBM docs. If you want 'em, I could
find the manual numbers. Note: I work in a VM/CMS shop; our
MVS documentation is sparse.

Quote:
>5) Anyone play with this P/370 thing (4381 chip in a PS/2 mod 95 box).
>   I'm thinking that would make a great lab/teaching machine.  
>   Actually getting time on a corporate system, or even time sharing
>   is tough.
>6) Speaking of time sharing, is there a list of organizations that
>   sell time?  I'm not convenced that a P/370 can do all that is
>   needed.

I heard that the P/370 is essentially a desktop 4381. It runs VM and
CMS, the whole works. I don't know how you get the software, though.

Quote:
>7) What's your favorite books or mags for 370 programming stuff.
>   When I left the industry a book by Kuo was the highest stuff,
>   I bet its out of print by now ;-)

I learned BAL from a book by Peter Abel, published by a company
in Reston. He does a new version every so often.

Quote:
>Sorry for all the stupid questions.
>Any help would greatly be appreciated.

I don't know if I've helped. Hope so...
Quote:
>Sincerely,
>Glen Clark
>ESDL, Inc.



Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:52:26 GMT  
 Stupid Question 101
For Computer time, look into local business, if there are any.  If not,
look into gigundo companies that are not so local.  A few years back,
I worked for a company that gave away free computer time to a school.
Since we didn't have dial-up access (for security reasons), they even
paid for the leased line to the school.  Must be a great tax writeoff
or it must look good somewhere.


Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:29:52 GMT  
 Stupid Question 101

Quote:


>>2) Is there a cheap cross compiler (runs on PC generates something
>>   like 370 code).  Nothing too fancy, don't even need macros, though
>>   that would be nice.  Would be great to be able to link on the
>>   mainframe and actually get it running.

>Have you considered Micro Focus' 370 Assembler Development
>Environment? That's not the product's name, and it probably isn't
>cheap. However, it apparently does a complete job of simulating
>the mainframe environment.

Good idea, I'll give them a chat.  I wanted to talk to them about
their COBOL stuff anyway.  Thanks.

Quote:

>>3) Is there a non-IBM document that discusses the SVC calls?
>>4) Is the object file format documented anywhere.  I'd like to be
>>   able to contrast it with the different exe formats in the PC
>>   industry.

>It is documented, but only in IBM docs. If you want 'em, I could
>find the manual numbers. Note: I work in a VM/CMS shop; our
>MVS documentation is sparse.

Yes, if it would not be too much to ask I would appreciate the
manual numbers.  I'm concerned about copyright and non-disclosures.
I will continue to see if there is a third party source.

Quote:

>>5) Anyone play with this P/370 thing (4381 chip in a PS/2 mod 95 box).
>>   I'm thinking that would make a great lab/teaching machine.  
>>   Actually getting time on a corporate system, or even time sharing
>>   is tough.
>>6) Speaking of time sharing, is there a list of organizations that
>>   sell time?  I'm not convenced that a P/370 can do all that is
>>   needed.

>I heard that the P/370 is essentially a desktop 4381. It runs VM and
>CMS, the whole works. I don't know how you get the software, though.

>>7) What's your favorite books or mags for 370 programming stuff.
>>   When I left the industry a book by Kuo was the highest stuff,
>>   I bet its out of print by now ;-)

>I learned BAL from a book by Peter Abel, published by a company
>in Reston. He does a new version every so often.

Cool, I'll look him up.

Thanks!!!!!!!

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

>>Sorry for all the stupid questions.
>>Any help would greatly be appreciated.

>I don't know if I've helped. Hope so...

>>Sincerely,
>>Glen Clark
>>ESDL, Inc.



Fri, 31 Jan 1997 03:43:42 GMT  
 Stupid Question 101
In comp.lang.asm370 Glen Clark writes:

Quote:
>2) Is there a cheap cross compiler (runs on PC generates something
>   like 370 code).  Nothing too fancy, don't even need macros, though
>   that would be nice.  Would be great to be able to link on the
>   mainframe and actually get it running.

Yes, ftp to a simtel20 mirror site, such as wuarchive.wustl.edu
or oak.oakland.edu and get the file emulator/pc370v42.zip

Quote:
>4) Is the object file format documented anywhere.  I'd like to be
>   able to contrast it with the different exe formats in the PC
>   industry.

Yes, but I forget in which manual.  I had to figure this out about 9
years ago when revising a program that parses out the symbol tables from
the object files.

Quote:
>7) What's your favorite books or mags for 370 programming stuff.
>   When I left the industry a book by Kuo was the highest stuff,
>   I bet its out of print by now ;-)

Spotswood Stoddard's book is very good, it's very popular around
my office.

        Jonathan Baker



Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:31:50 GMT  
 Stupid Question 101
In comp.lang.asm370 Murray Alexander writes:

Quote:
>Have you considered Micro Focus' 370 Assembler Development
>Environment? That's not the product's name, and it probably isn't
>cheap. However, it apparently does a complete job of simulating
>the mainframe environment.

The pc370 I referred to earlier is an early release of Micro Focus'
product; MF bought it from the fellow who wrote it originally.
The shareware version has the entire instruction set, many of the
OS SVC's, and some of the basic macros (OPEN, GET, PUT, WTO,
SPIE, etc.)

        Jonathan Baker



Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:36:40 GMT  
 Stupid Question 101
Quote:

>I'm an old mainframer which was {*filter*}ped by the PC industry
>for a number of years, and I'm trying to get back up to
>speed and launch a new career.  I've had a number of organizations
>asking for asm370 training, so I'm trying to write a class.
>So a lot of stupid questions:

   ...

Quote:
>2) Is there a cheap cross compiler (runs on PC generates something
>   like 370 code).  Nothing too fancy, don't even need macros, though
>   that would be nice.  Would be great to be able to link on the
>   mainframe and actually get it running.

 What language would you like compiled?  Are you talking about ASM here,
or something more high-level?

        - Dave Rivers -
--
Imagine Whirled Peas.



Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:30:12 GMT  
 Stupid Question 101

says:
Quote:

>4) Is the object file format documented anywhere.  I'd like to be
>   able to contrast it with the different exe formats in the PC
>   industry.

My standard reference for the object file format is the _Assembler_H_
Version_2_Programming_Guide_, IBM publication SC26-4036-2.  Look
in Appendix C, "Object Deck Output."


Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:45:22 GMT  
 Stupid Question 101

Quote:

> 3) Is there a non-IBM document that discusses the SVC calls?

For which operating system?  And how detailed do you want?  For which
subset of SVCs?

And do you want the data at the register level, or from a macro perspective?

Quote:
> 4) Is the object file format documented anywhere.  I'd like to be
>    able to contrast it with the different exe formats in the PC
>    industry.

Object modules are described in SC26-4941 "High Level Assembler/MVS & VM
& VSE Programmer's Guide".

If you're still an XA shop, load module format can be gotten from LY26-3963
"MVS/XA Linkage Editor Logic".  Maybe the ESA variant still has this info.

John Ehrman just had a nice presentation at SHARE entitled "Through LKED
with Gun and Camera" which has a good overview of linkage editor processing.
(This was session 4812.)

Quote:
> 7) What's your favorite books or mags for 370 programming stuff.

I learned many years ago from George Struble's book -- I believe it was
"Assembly Language Programming for the IBM System/360", but I'm not sure.

NaSPA (formerly "National Systems Programmers Association) issues a
periodical.  Contact them at 414-423-2420.

"Enterprise Systems Journal" is a freebie trade magazine -- call them at
214-669-9000.  BEWARE: Cardinal Business Media (the publisher) will sell
your name and address to a million vendors and you will be inundated with
junk mail, so you have to want this publication badly.

If you have access to old SHARE proceedings, Robert Rannie, John Ehrman
and others have published a number of tutorials having to do with 370
assembly language programming.  Topics have included: the basic language,
macro language and basic I/O using the access methods.  Still more involved
topics have included tours through the MVS subsystem interface, command
processing, STARTIO and more.  (I'm not VM literate, but I'm sure there
is a wealth of information for that as well.)

SHARE in general is a good thing for persons who are active in 370 systems.
See if your installation is a member, or if it can afford to send you to
one of the biannual meetings, which alternate between east and west coasts.

--
David Andrews



Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:38:45 GMT  
 Stupid Question 101

Quote:


>says:
>>4) Is the object file format documented anywhere.  I'd like to be
>>   able to contrast it with the different exe formats in the PC
>>   industry.
>My standard reference for the object file format is the _Assembler_H_
>Version_2_Programming_Guide_, IBM publication SC26-4036-2.  Look
>in Appendix C, "Object Deck Output."

Its also in the appendix C of the HLASM programmers guide, SC26-4941.
--
Rich Greenberg            Work: TBA.  Know anybody needing a VM guru?

Pacific time.  I speak for myself and my dogs only.  Canines: Chinook & Husky


Sat, 01 Feb 1997 13:26:37 GMT  
 Stupid Question 101
: 5) Anyone play with this P/370 thing (4381 chip in a PS/2 mod 95 box).
:    I'm thinking that would make a great lab/teaching machine.  
:    Actually getting time on a corporate system, or even time sharing
:    is tough.

I have seen the P/370 card running VM/ESA 370 on a PS/2 luggable (model 70?)
and was most impressed.  It is available (as far as I know) only when
bundled with products from a variety of IBM business partners; last I
heard, IBM were not marketing it themselves.  GenText, in Dallas, used to
sell it with some rather nice tools for electronic document processing.  
Their number, should you wish to see if they still offer the 'PubStation',
is +1 214 691 0300 (tel) or 691 0789 (fax).

The card makes use of the PS/2's microchannel architecture for I/O.  It
makes the diskette drive appear as a tape drive to VM.  The operating
system is (or was) purchased for a one-time charge, and came on a stack
of diskettes.

--
+------------------------------+------------------------------------------+

|        Michael Tanzer        |                                          |
+------------------------------+------------------------------------------+



Sat, 01 Feb 1997 12:51:57 GMT  
 Stupid Question 101

Quote:

>If you have access to old SHARE proceedings, Robert Rannie, John Ehrman
>and others have published a number of tutorials having to do with 370
>assembly language programming.  Topics have included: the basic language,
>macro language and basic I/O using the access methods.  Still more involved
>topics have included tours through the MVS subsystem interface, command
>processing, STARTIO and more.  (I'm not VM literate, but I'm sure there
>is a wealth of information for that as well.)

I have been to SHARE EUROPE twice and we've got all the proceedings,
but I would like to get hold of this stuff.  Is there any way to get
it without sending off to the USA for a shelf full of volumes of
which most of the content will be uninteresting?  I.e. is there such
a thing as "collected SHARE USA systems tutorials", and if not, maybe
someone ought to do one?


Sun, 02 Feb 1997 00:23:59 GMT  
 Stupid Question 101

Quote:

> I have been to SHARE EUROPE twice and we've got all the proceedings,
> but I would like to get hold of this stuff.  Is there any way to get
> it without sending off to the USA for a shelf full of volumes of
> which most of the content will be uninteresting?

Here is part of the copyright statement from the inside cover of the
Proceedings from SHARE 82:

  "Copyright (c) SHARE Inc. 1994  FOR SHARE USE ONLY - NOT FOR COMMERCIAL
   PURPOSES  All Rights Reserved

  Published by SHARE Inc., a non-profit Delaware membership corporation.
  Permission to reproduce in whole or in part may be granted for educational
  and scientific purposes upon written application to the Secretary, 401 N.
  Michigan Ave., Chicago, Illinois 60611.  Permission is hereby granted to
  Members of SHARE Inc., and to members of those user groups who are
  participants in the International User Group Council (IUGC) to reproduce
  this publication in whole or in part solely for internal distribution
  within the Member's organization and provided the copyright notice is set
  forth in full text on the title page of each item reproduced."

Since I presume that SHARE Europe is a member of the IUGC, and I presume that
your installation is still a member of SHARE Europe, then my interpretation
of the copyright statement is that you are allowed to make copies of
"interesting" papers.  I'd suggest that you find someone in your part
of the world who has an original and make arrangements to inspect and/or
copy their materials.

Should you decide to purchase back issues of the last couple of Proceedings
anyway, they cost $60.00 U.S. (plus $50.00 airfreight to European locations).
Contact for additional information:
  SHARE Inc.
  401 N. Michigan Avenue
  Chicago IL  60611-4267
  USA
  312-822-0932 voice
  312-644-6363 fax

--
David Andrews



Sun, 02 Feb 1997 06:01:32 GMT  
 Stupid Question 101

Quote:


>>Yes, if it would not be too much to ask I would appreciate the
>>manual numbers.  I'm concerned about copyright and non-disclosures.
>>I will continue to see if there is a third party source.

>Glen, I found our copy of IBM's _Assembler H Version 2 Programming Guide_.
>Appendix C is titled "Object Deck Output", and documents the format of the
>ESD, TXT, RLD, END, and TESTRAN (SYM) cards (er...records) (I gather the
>last is for some kind of de{*filter*}). The IBM publication number is
>SC26-4036-2, and may be something you can buy (or order) from your
>nearest IBM office.

>Another place to look for info is the University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
>They produced a *very* nice C compiler-and-library package for VM. Lots
>of great example utilities, such as a disassembler that converts a TEXT
>file (VM/CMS object deck) back to Assembler source. I had *great* fun with
>that!

If anyone would like information about this, please contact me.  If there
is sufficient interest, I will do a general posting.

Trevor Grove
Computer Systems Group
University of Waterloo


+1 519 888 4679

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
>Murray Alexander
>City of Vancouver
>"Do it right, or do it over. Which do you prefer?" - me



Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:21:56 GMT  
 Stupid Question 101

Quote:

>I'm an old mainframer which was {*filter*}ped by the PC industry
>for a number of years, and I'm trying to get back up to
>speed and launch a new career.  I've had a number of organizations
>asking for asm370 training, so I'm trying to write a class.
>So a lot of stupid questions:

>1) Is there a forum for AS/400 (ok, I know its not exactly related)?

yechhhhhhhhhh

Quote:
>2) Is there a cheap cross compiler (runs on PC generates something
>   like 370 code).  Nothing too fancy, don't even need macros, though
>   that would be nice.  Would be great to be able to link on the
>   mainframe and actually get it running.

There is a ustabe shareware, now freebe called ASM370(?),
commonly fund on CD shareware collections that even has sorta-macros

Quote:
>3) Is there a non-IBM document that discusses the SVC calls?

which operating system(s)?

Quote:
>4) Is the object file format documented anywhere.  I'd like to be
>   able to contrast it with the different exe formats in the PC
>   industry.

look in linkage editor logic manl

Quote:
>5) Anyone play with this P/370 thing (4381 chip in a PS/2 mod 95 box).
>   I'm thinking that would make a great lab/teaching machine.  
>   Actually getting time on a corporate system, or even time sharing
>   is tough.

it is expensive (20k) and IBM only sells em in bunches of 300.
the buyer is supposed to do a value added number and put a
non-IBM label on the front - not practical

Quote:
>6) Speaking of time sharing, is there a list of organizations that
>   sell time?  I'm not convenced that a P/370 can do all that is
>   needed.

if you could get ahold of a P/370, itt'l run 16 users, VM/SP-6
and cooks along faster than a 4381, just tuf to do one at a time.

Quote:
>7) What's your favorite books or mags for 370 programming stuff.
>   When I left the industry a book by Kuo was the highest stuff,
>   I bet its out of print by now ;-)

I have no imagination, I teach architecture and assembly right
out of the Principles of operation

Quote:
>Sorry for all the stupid questions.
>Any help would greatly be appreciated.

>Sincerely,
>Glen Clark
>ESDL, Inc.

-Flash->


Tue, 04 Feb 1997 14:43:50 GMT  
 
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